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3 minutes ago, Renton said:

Do you think the "red wall" (which is only 43 seats, if you include the Midlands) will be voting tory again come 2024 with what's on the horizon? I can't see it personally. The government has to face the prospect of their promises hitting reality, with the deepest recession in living history sprinkled on top.

 

Rayvin, we've left the EU, there is no way back now. It doesn't rule us out us getting a closer EEA type arrangement though, maybe in a decade. I personally think that is the natural place for us and I could live with that. Scotland will become independent and will fully join the EU in a decade imo. 

 

I agree that there's no way back, but in the end what's the point in my vote if I'm not actually standing behind something I believe in? I have been a supporter of an ever closer union with the EU from even before all this fucking nonsense started - if I keep abandoning principle after principle then my vote is meaningless. It's just an empty, vague thing that I throw around without understanding it. If I don't vote for the things I care about, then why should I even pay attention?

 

I'm not going to be able to vote Labour if they're pro-Brexit.

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2 minutes ago, Renton said:

Do you think the "red wall" (which is only 43 seats, if you include the Midlands) will be voting tory again come 2024 with what's on the horizon? I can't see it personally. The government has to face the prospect of their promises hitting reality, with the deepest recession in living history sprinkled on top.

 

Rayvin, we've left the EU, there is no way back now. It doesn't rule us out us getting a closer EEA type arrangement though, maybe in a decade. I personally think that is the natural place for us and I could live with that. Scotland will become independent and will fully join the EU in a decade imo. 

it depends on whether starmer can learn how to speak to them. the last election wasn't decided on brexit alone. corbyn's wing couldn't speak to these people about many of the issues that matter to them - immigration, security and defence, bowing correctly to the fucking queen. starmer has got to learn how to do all that sharpish, while keeping the cult with him. 

the rachel from swindon/aaron bastani types on twitter are already doing their best to sabotage labour's election prospects, then you have the likes of len mcclusky doing it in the real world. starmer has his work cut but he has to find a way to convince those that made labour unelectable last time that he can win back middle england and the disenfranchised racists in wales and in the north. 

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1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

I agree that there's no way back, but in the end what's the point in my vote if I'm not actually standing behind something I believe in? I have been a supporter of an ever closer union with the EU from even before all this fucking nonsense started - if I keep abandoning principle after principle then my vote is meaningless. It's just an empty, vague thing that I throw around without understanding it. If I don't vote for the things I care about, then why should I even pay attention?

 

I'm not going to be able to vote Labour if they're pro-Brexit.

what is it the point in being principled in opposition? ideological purity doesn't win elections

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Just now, Dr Gloom said:

what is it the point in being principled in opposition? ideological purity doesn't win elections

 

What is the point in voting for something you don't believe in? This isn't rhetorical, I'm genuinely wanting an answer to this.

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3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I agree that there's no way back, but in the end what's the point in my vote if I'm not actually standing behind something I believe in? I have been a supporter of an ever closer union with the EU from even before all this fucking nonsense started - if I keep abandoning principle after principle then my vote is meaningless. It's just an empty, vague thing that I throw around without understanding it. If I don't vote for the things I care about, then why should I even pay attention?

 

I'm not going to be able to vote Labour if they're pro-Brexit.

 

I thinknsaying they are pro Brexit is a stretch personally, maybe its just recognition it has already happened and cannot easily be reversed. I'm fully with you. I am massively pro-European and would love us to be fully in, adopt the Euro, be part of a United Countries of Europe. But I recognise its a minority view which is unachievable. You always have to compromise in politics, nobody fully represents you.

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Because you believe in the other things that they stand for, and because the argument on Brexit has been lost, at least for now?

 

Maitaining an anti-Brexit stance is a total gift to the Tories. As is Labour voters walking away from the party because they would prefer that it hands said gift to the Tories. I mean how long do you want to give this lot in power? 

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3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

What is the point in voting for something you don't believe in? This isn't rhetorical, I'm genuinely wanting an answer to this.

who are you - russell brand? this is the democracy we live in. i would rather vote green but i choose to vote labour because they're better than the other lot. 

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Just now, Renton said:

 

I thinknsaying they are pro Brexit is a stretch personally, maybe its just recognition it has already happened and cannot easily be reversed. I'm fully with you. I am massively pro-European and would love us to be fully in, adopt the Euro, be part of a United Countries of Europe. But I recognise its a minority view which is unachievable. You always have to compromise in politics, nobody fully represents you.

 

I've compromised enough. I've compromised all the way from basically supporting the vast majority of the Corbyn program to whatever watered down versions Starmer is going to put out, but I'm not stepping over the line on Brexit. 

 

“I wish we weren’t in the situation we are in now. But I think that trying to reopen those debates and those old wounds, I don’t think it will help the country move on and I don’t think it will help the Labour Party move on.

“I don’t see that we’re going to be in a position that in the next election we’re going to be campaigning to go back into the EU… I think we need to accept the result of the referendum and the last election and move on.

 

This is a pragmatic and sensible position for Labour to take but it's very clear as well. They're pandering to the fuckheads who voted for this. They are therefore taking my vote for granted - I've just had enough of it, I really have. I'm not voting for any party that isn't full on Remain, it is now my defining political position because it's about the only one I have left.

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4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I've compromised enough. I've compromised all the way from basically supporting the vast majority of the Corbyn program to whatever watered down versions Starmer is going to put out, but I'm not stepping over the line on Brexit. 

 

“I wish we weren’t in the situation we are in now. But I think that trying to reopen those debates and those old wounds, I don’t think it will help the country move on and I don’t think it will help the Labour Party move on.

“I don’t see that we’re going to be in a position that in the next election we’re going to be campaigning to go back into the EU… I think we need to accept the result of the referendum and the last election and move on.

 

This is a pragmatic and sensible position for Labour to take but it's very clear as well. They're pandering to the fuckheads who voted for this. They are therefore taking my vote for granted - I've just had enough of it, I really have. I'm not voting for any party that isn't full on Remain, it is now my defining political position because it's about the only one I have left.

 

Remain is over. I mean wtf sort of policy stance in 2024 is "let's talk about the argument that we lost 9 years ago". 

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Just now, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

Whereabouts?

 

 

Between Dumfries and Glasgow, one of the little villages down there. Slightly nearer to Dumfries tbf.

 

I'll be moving soon but still in the area. I'm here in part because my Mum needs some support atm (as did I when I went, I suppose), and in part because coronavirus has sort of stopped me going back for what was supposed to just be a few months :lol: 

 

Ultimately I'm just rudderless right now but I do prefer living up here to being in England, I can say that very readily.

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1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

Between Dumfries and Glasgow, one of the little villages down there. Slightly nearer to Dumfries tbf.

 

I'll be moving soon but still in the area. I'm here in part because my Mum needs some support atm (as did I when I went, I suppose), and in part because coronavirus has sort of stopped me going back for what was supposed to just be a few months :lol: 

 

Ultimately I'm just rudderless right now but I do prefer living up here to being in England, I can say that very readily.

Dumfries is good and a lovely area. I have been here for 17 years now and it's great.

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10 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I've compromised enough. I've compromised all the way from basically supporting the vast majority of the Corbyn program to whatever watered down versions Starmer is going to put out, but I'm not stepping over the line on Brexit. 

 

“I wish we weren’t in the situation we are in now. But I think that trying to reopen those debates and those old wounds, I don’t think it will help the country move on and I don’t think it will help the Labour Party move on.

“I don’t see that we’re going to be in a position that in the next election we’re going to be campaigning to go back into the EU… I think we need to accept the result of the referendum and the last election and move on.

 

This is a pragmatic and sensible position for Labour to take but it's very clear as well. They're pandering to the fuckheads who voted for this. They are therefore taking my vote for granted - I've just had enough of it, I really have. I'm not voting for any party that isn't full on Remain, it is now my defining political position because it's about the only one I have left.

you have to vote for the least-worst option. i held my nose and voted for corbyn last time - i also like my local labour MP.

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1 minute ago, Gemmill said:

 

Remain is over. I mean wtf sort of policy stance in 2024 is "let's talk about the argument that we lost 9 years ago". 

 

So my voting position becomes 100% "I hate the Tories". Because atm at least, Labour don't appear to stand for anything whatsoever. Again, pragmatism I'm sure, but apart from deciding they support Brexit, they've abstained on pretty much everything else. I get it, they're working out how to position themselves - but it's clear that this position is going to be over to the red wall voters. And great, I hope that works out for them, but my vote is not guaranteed, I've compromised more than I ever wanted to and at some point it has to stop.

 

I mean it makes no difference anyway, I'm "radically left wing" so I'm not representative, Labour are ahead of the Tories in the polls by being a vague, bland colour of politics, and if they're going to "win" they'll do so with or without me. But we have now reached a point where me voting for them is actively voting against my own interests and making my life more difficult, so I think that's the point where I give Starmer the finger and we part ways.

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Just now, Dr Gloom said:

you have to vote for the least-worst option. i held my nose and voted for corbyn last time - i also like my local labour MP.

 

Yeah I did it with Miliband, I remember what you're "meant" to do. But to some extent the party still has to represent you.

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3 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

Dumfries is good and a lovely area. I have been here for 17 years now and it's great.

 

It genuinely is - having been in a pretty difficult place for the past couple of years, I can say that being up here has helped me immeasurably. I'll be reluctant to go back, if the time ever comes.

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Brexit is done. Time to get over it.

What I didn't like was her refusal to rejoin the SM and/or the CU. But no one is writing the 2024 election manifesto yet. There's a long time between now and then.

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5 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

I vote SNP at the moment, if independence happens and Scotland is free from westminster then I will look around for another party. With it being PR up here I feel my votes count more.

I'm planning on living up there after Indie (or closer to it), I think a lot of people miss that point you make, once Indie happens SNP will have served their purpose and will morph into something else and other parties will appear and as you say PR will be way more democratic.

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17 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Between Dumfries and Glasgow, one of the little villages down there. Slightly nearer to Dumfries tbf.

 

I'll be moving soon but still in the area. I'm here in part because my Mum needs some support atm (as did I when I went, I suppose), and in part because coronavirus has sort of stopped me going back for what was supposed to just be a few months :lol: 

 

Ultimately I'm just rudderless right now but I do prefer living up here to being in England, I can say that very readily.

 

You might enjoy this. Out today... 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1529412773/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_bXTFFbNNV81MT

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2 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

I'm planning on living up there after Indie (or closer to it), I think a lot of people miss that point you make, once Indie happens SNP will have served their purpose and will morph into something else and other parties will appear and as you say PR will be way more democratic.

Yeah the SNP will fall aprt after Independence, the Labour party can find it's own way. The Tories will be fucked because they will lose the unionist side, so they will change to a some other form of conservatism. It will be interesting times. If it happens.

 

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Just now, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

Yeah the SNP will fall aprt after Independence, the Labour party can find it's own way. The Tories will be fucked because they will lose the unionist side, so they will change to a some other form of conservatism. It will be interesting times. If it happens.

 

When mate, when, I think it is inexorable now

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11 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

It genuinely is - having been in a pretty difficult place for the past couple of years, I can say that being up here has helped me immeasurably. I'll be reluctant to go back, if the time ever comes.

 

Why would you? Make a life up there mate. I have to say I would if I could but its not practical regarding career or family. I do love where I live too mind but the political situation is unbearable. 

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