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1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

in case the sarcasm was lost again, i was poking fun. i don't blame you for anything

 

I'm struggling to see it in the initial post, especially since the two statements it's couched between are both quite possibly accurate. Yes Starmer may set the foundations for a return, and yes I have given up on democracy.

 

It's worth noting though that Starmer appears to me to be pragmatic above everything else. He isn't going to push us back towards the EU on principle, only if there are votes in it. Therefore it makes sense for me to hold my vote ransom if i ever want to see this happen.

 

Not that I actually matter at all, but you get the idea.

 

I stuck with him through a number of abstentions that made my stomach turn based on taking a pragmatic view myself, but if they stop being a pro-EU party then that really is the end of it for me.

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5 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I'm struggling to see it in the initial post, especially since the two statements it's couched between are both quite possibly accurate. Yes Starmer may set the foundations for a return, and yes I have given up on democracy.

 

It's worth noting though that Starmer appears to me to be pragmatic above everything else. He isn't going to push us back towards the EU on principle, only if there are votes in it. Therefore it makes sense for me to hold my vote ransom if i ever want to see this happen.

 

Not that I actually matter at all, but you get the idea.

 

I stuck with him through a number of abstentions that made my stomach turn based on taking a pragmatic view myself, but if they stop being a pro-EU party then that really is the end of it for me.

i don't blame CT for brexit anymore than i would blame you for choosing not to vote labour. i felt the same way after iraq so i lent my vote to the greens. depends on what kind of seat you're in, i suppose. mine has always been safe labour. i wouldn't ever protest vote if i lived in a marginal.

but while i understand your disillusion over brexit - i share it - i also think we have to accept it is happening. i'm at that stage of grief now: leaving the EU has a democratic mandate. the last GE was essentially a second referendum. it's shit, but no political party is going to win power on a rejoin platform any time soon. 

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4 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

i don't blame CT for brexit anymore than i would blame you for choosing not to vote labour. i felt the same way after iraq so i lent my vote to the greens. depends on what kind of seat you're in, i suppose. mine has always been safe labour. i wouldn't ever protest vote if i lived in a marginal.

but while i understand your disillusion over brexit - i share it - i also think we have to accept it is happening. i'm at that stage of grief now: leaving the EU has a democratic mandate. the last GE was essentially a second referendum. it's shit, but no political party is going to win power on a rejoin platform any time soon. 

 

Don't really disagree with any of that, but in the end this is a deeply held issue for me and one that I can't find it in myself to budge from. I mean it does affect me quite directly which is perhaps partially why.

 

Either way though, I can't follow the party into this particular direction. And from the party's point of view, they have weighed my loss against the gains of the redwallers. They want them, not me. There's not all that much more to it.

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4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Don't really disagree with any of that, but in the end this is a deeply held issue for me and one that I can't find it in myself to budge from. I mean it does affect me quite directly which is perhaps partially why.

 

Either way though, I can't follow the party into this particular direction. And from the party's point of view, they have weighed my loss against the gains of the redwallers. They want them, not me. There's not all that much more to it.

i think you're still still in the depression stage of grief. don't worry: acceptance is coming 

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2 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Steve Wraith is booked to hold a funeral procession for Rayvin's Labour vote at noon if anyone is interested.

 

Resigned membership as well but didn't want to mention it earlier because you'll doubtless be on at me again for flip flopping ;) and tbf I did say I was going to quit after voting Starmer but i never got around to it.

 

This is now twice I've resigned from the party due to their EU stance though. Once under Corbyn and now under Starmer.

 

Fairly consistent on this point :D

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5 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

i think you're still still in the depression stage of grief. don't worry: acceptance is coming 

 

I think I'm just done with democracy as you said further up and as I have said myself repeatedly. Gonna join KCG with the SNP vote though, an independent Scotland can't come soon enough.

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1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

 

I think I'm just done with democracy as you said further up and as I have said myself repeatedly. Gonna join KCG with the SNP vote though, an independent Scotland can't come soon enough.

 

Can you tell me what the current thinking among SNP types for what might happen on a future Anglo/Scottish border where one state may well be an EU member and the other definitely won't be? sorry to spring this on you mate but I often ask cyber Nats on Twitter and usually get blocked immediately :lol:

 

It's the same as Brexit...no fucker mentioned the Irish border in 2015/16...in fact the more one eyed Indy supporters sound exactly the same as Brexiteers, it's just a different cause..

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12 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

 

Can you tell me what the current thinking among SNP types for what might happen on a future Anglo/Scottish border where one state may well be an EU member and the other definitely won't be? sorry to spring this on you mate but I often ask cyber Nats on Twitter and usually get blocked immediately :lol:

 

It's the same as Brexit...no fucker mentioned the Irish border in 2015/16...in fact the more one eyed Indy supporters sound exactly the same as Brexiteers, it's just a different cause..

There will be a hard border

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25 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

 

Can you tell me what the current thinking among SNP types for what might happen on a future Anglo/Scottish border where one state may well be an EU member and the other definitely won't be? sorry to spring this on you mate but I often ask cyber Nats on Twitter and usually get blocked immediately :lol:

 

It's the same as Brexit...no fucker mentioned the Irish border in 2015/16...in fact the more one eyed Indy supporters sound exactly the same as Brexiteers, it's just a different cause..

 

Far better off with KCG answering that one, I'm a recent convert. If I had to say, I'd imagine that a hard border would be worth the price to many Scots. I'd be ok with it personally.

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I lived in Scotland for 12 years (we moved to the west coast of Scotland from Newcastle, when I was 9).

 

I couldn’t stand living there and moved away as soon as I was old enough to do so. I could never get my head round the whole Catholic/Protestant thing and how obsessed they were with the English. It basically amounted to socially acceptable racism. I’m always suspicious of really patriotic people and there are loads in Scotland (their national anthem has to be the pettiest there is). There’s just too much anger. I’m not sure that the west coast/Glasgow is entirely representative though as I didn’t find it like that in Edinburgh and on the East Coast. 

 

It’s a shame as it is a beautiful country and is absolutely belting to visit. The weather is absolutely abysmal though.

 

That said, my folks still live there and really like it although they are very fearful of a second referendum.

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2 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

Resigned membership as well but didn't want to mention it earlier because you'll doubtless be on at me again for flip flopping ;) and tbf I did say I was going to quit after voting Starmer but i never got around to it.

 

This is now twice I've resigned from the party due to their EU stance though. Once under Corbyn and now under Starmer.

 

Fairly consistent on this point :D

Whisper it quietly but EU membership isn't the most important issue facing the UK regardless of the pandemic. Replacing the tories would be infinitely better for most people than rejoining. 

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50 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

There will be a hard border

 

Yeah. Won't affect the central belt too much though. Would you care to comment on the likely effect on the Scottish Borders ? (and obvs North Northumberland) Some good historical background on this is what happened to the area after Berwick upon Tweed finally became English and was removed from its natural hinterland ie the Tweed Valley  in the 1400s...create a hard border & you create problems...

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1 hour ago, PaddockLad said:

 

Can you tell me what the current thinking among SNP types for what might happen on a future Anglo/Scottish border where one state may well be an EU member and the other definitely won't be? sorry to spring this on you mate but I often ask cyber Nats on Twitter and usually get blocked immediately :lol:

 

It's the same as Brexit...no fucker mentioned the Irish border in 2015/16...in fact the more one eyed Indy supporters sound exactly the same as Brexiteers, it's just a different cause..

 

I don't agree there will be a hard border nor the need for one. Scotland would have to accept regulatory and customs checks in its ports. That would be a disadvantage as it would cause some expense and friction,  but nothing like England faces because trade with Europe is containerised and doesn't involve RoRo ferries to the best of my knowledge.

 

Small independent countries tend to do well i  the EU, no reason Scotland won't in time. I can envisage Edinburgh being a major financial centre and lots of international countries investing there. Tourism will be huge. Agriculture too, and still some oil left in the tank. But it's not about what Scotland has to gain, we've reached the point now of what has it got to lose? The UK is doomed and English nationalism is more to blame than Scottish nationalism. 

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4 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

This kind of post is exactly why Scotland has to secede. 

can you explain the benefits? i've read into it and tried to get my head around it but to me, it seems as bizarre as brexit. nationalism is alluring - it plays on patriotic emotion - but under scrutiny? i'm not that convinced

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