Dr Gloom 19801 Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 Meanwhile, in cloud cuckoo land Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19801 Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 Best piece yet: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/08/afghanistan-your-fault/619769/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3193 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 10 hours ago, Dr Gloom said: Monty is spot on No that's bollocks, Trump setting free 6000 armed Taliban gave him two choices, the reason there have been low casualties is because those 6000 were locked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19801 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 11 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said: No that's bollocks, Trump setting free 6000 armed Taliban gave him two choices, the reason there have been low casualties is because those 6000 were locked up. Zero deaths since jan 2020. You can blame Trump for getting the ball rolling but Biden’s decision to walk away overnight is indefensible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19801 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 Did you read the whole thread? He’s spot on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30367 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 (edited) Zero deaths since January because the Taliban didn’t want to endanger the withdrawal agreement though? Probably that as much as anything. It’s a fucking horrible situation but the way the afghan forces and government have capitulated suggests it was just delaying the inevitable. Why the fuck should foreign forces do what the regime and its armed forces aren’t prepared to do? Edited August 17, 2021 by Alex 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3193 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, Alex said: Zero deaths since January because the Taliban didn’t want to endanger the withdrawal agreement though? Probably that as much as anything. It’s a fucking horrible situation but the way the afghan forces and government have capitulated suggests it was just delaying the inevitable. Why the fuck should foreign forces do what the regime and its armed forces aren’t prepared to do? He’s siding with a journalist, fucking surprise surprise. Tim Montgomerie is a Tory brexit twat who spouts bollocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19801 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 8 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said: He’s siding with a journalist, fucking surprise surprise. Tim Montgomerie is a Tory brexit twat who spouts bollocks. oh, please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19801 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 departing in this manner is a betrayal of the afghan people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3193 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 Just now, Dr Gloom said: departing in this manner is a betrayal of the afghan people Fuck off cunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19801 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 16 minutes ago, Alex said: Zero deaths since January because the Taliban didn’t want to endanger the withdrawal agreement though? Probably that as much as anything. It’s a fucking horrible situation but the way the afghan forces and government have capitulated suggests it was just delaying the inevitable. Why the fuck should foreign forces do what the regime and its armed forces aren’t prepared to do? because they created the mess in the first place? the idea that regime change could facilitate a fully-functioning democracy overnight was always a fantasy but once that decision to invade has been made, isn't there a moral duty to remain and try to help keep the peace given the relative lack of expense - both financially and in terms of casualties? the real reason they withdrew is war-fatigue. the us electorate overwhelmingly support the withdrawal of troops (all other democratic nominees ran on the same policy) - not because it's the right thing to do. sadly we will now see a remote/drone-led war of attrition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19801 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 5 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said: Fuck off cunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26271 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 Would the Taliban have had the balls to launch such an offensive while the USA still had a presence in the country? Probably not but there's a chance they would have done and the USA would not have wanted to get drawn into battle against them. The swift withdrawal obviously had a crushing impact on Afghan morale among their army and is undoubtedly a large factor behind their decision to lay down their arms rather than engage. Afghanistan wasn't a high priority with Americans. There was no massive pressure on Biden to withdraw from the country, it looked unnecessary at the time and has proven disastrous. It's fair to say that neither the USA nor the Afghanistan government come out of this well but the responsibility was on the Americans to maintain the peace in the country once they invaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19801 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 12 hours ago, Alex said: I think Biden makes some great points re: withdrawing from Afghanistan tbf i get that it's easy for the likes of monty and every other pundit criticising biden - it's not their kids in the US military putting themselves in harm's way. biden's kids all served and he knows what it's like. but i thought he was guilty of rewriting the narrative, claiming state-building was never the mission. we were told the opposite for two decades, 8 years of which biden served as VP. if the mission was solely to decapitate al qaeda, it was never said at the time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 13834 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 Apparently a lot of the ANA had been defecting to the Taliban for a while & now basically the Taliban have $83bn of USA military & police equipment. As soon as the USA/NATO buggered off a lot of people didn’t want to resist and defected from the ANA & were always going to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30367 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 38 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: because they created the mess in the first place? the idea that regime change could facilitate a fully-functioning democracy overnight was always a fantasy but once that decision to invade has been made, isn't there a moral duty to remain and try to help keep the peace given the relative lack of expense - both financially and in terms of casualties? the real reason they withdrew is war-fatigue. the us electorate overwhelmingly support the withdrawal of troops (all other democratic nominees ran on the same policy) - not because it's the right thing to do. sadly we will now see a remote/drone-led war of attrition Who’s ‘they’? Blair, Bush et al created it 20 years ago and people expect young working class kids (in most cases) to keep putting their lives at risk for it. Other people’s kids of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3976 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 Has there been an example of democracy "winning" in any Islamic country? There was a lot of hope around that "Arab Spring" but iirc places like Egypt just voted for cunts as soon as they got the chance. Of course there will be forward looking people with hope in all of these countries but at the moment they're probably still the minority - time may change that of course. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19801 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 21 minutes ago, Alex said: Who’s ‘they’? Blair, Bush et al created it 20 years ago and people expect young working class kids (in most cases) to keep putting their lives at risk for it. Other people’s kids of course Bush and Blair, yes, and later Obama and Biden. If the objective was nation building then the manner of Biden’s withdrawal is a disaster. But at least some former Greek finance ministers can celebrate the death of western imperialism while these scenes unfold. Solidarity kiddies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 3595 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 The war in Afghanistan has been a total success in its true mission which is feeding hundreds of billions of dollars to the American industrial War machine. Anybody claiming there was any other aim is talking bollocks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17743 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Alex said: Who’s ‘they’? Blair, Bush et al created it 20 years ago and people expect young working class kids (in most cases) to keep putting their lives at risk for it. Other people’s kids of course The last UK fatalities were in 2015 I think? I don't know, this just seems like an utter betrayal not only of the Afghan civilians but also of the families of the British army who died there and those who lost their limbs and minds. And what next? The formation of an islamic caliphate is not going to lead to any long-term peace, and we are doomed to suffer more terrorism and probably ultimately a rinse and repeat war. I find Biden's action reprehensible tbh, he's continuing Trump's isolationist America First legacy. Fuck him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3193 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 23 minutes ago, Renton said: The last UK fatalities were in 2015 I think? I don't know, this just seems like an utter betrayal not only of the Afghan civilians but also of the families of the British army who died there and those who lost their limbs and minds. And what next? The formation of an islamic caliphate is not going to lead to any long-term peace, and we are doomed to suffer more terrorism and probably ultimately a rinse and repeat war. I find Biden's action reprehensible tbh, he's continuing Trump's isolationist America First legacy. Fuck him. I volunteer with my regiments peer support group and we have gone all hands to the pump because of the way veterans, especially, but not only, those dealing with mental issues, are reacting to this. The guys who lost limbs, friends or just a little part of their pre combat minds are suffering massively. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17743 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 I know there's no easy solutions but this is surely the worst outcome there could have been. America have been shit at this warfare malarkey since WW2. Can't think of a single useful thing they have achieved through military action. In fact, they have consistently made things much worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8986 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 22 minutes ago, Renton said: I know there's no easy solutions but this is surely the worst outcome there could have been. America have been shit at this warfare malarkey since WW2. Can't think of a single useful thing they have achieved through military action. In fact, they have consistently made things much worse. Because isn't it less about winning wars and more about money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17743 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 18 minutes ago, The Fish said: Because isn't it less about winning wars and more about money? Well maybe I'm not cynical enough but that makes no sense to me. Wars are started by politicians, for political reasons imo, not monetary ones. Sure they will be lobbied by the industrial-military complex but they are not the only stakeholders here and I doubt how powerful they really are. For politicians, its all about public perception, popularism is their motive. Was true for Bush, is true now for Biden. They want votes, and military deaths and worse defeats are not vote winners, which is why it all goes to shit when its discovered there is no exit plan. When faced between the options of believing there is some deep-seated conspiracy at play here or just gross incompetence, I go for the latter every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30367 Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 What was a realistic end game here though? I guess the only real alternative was staying indefinitely. I’m not suggesting this has been done well in any way, shape or form but it does seem to me almost anything would’ve been delaying the inevitable. The repatriation talk is pretty pathetic though. How are you supposed to these people out now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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