Ranger

[Park Life 70]

39 minutes ago, adios said:

Your example is something that pre-sentient primitive AI can do?

That's not what I'm alluding to. A.I. can play chess but we have to write a program for that. Anyway that's not the issue.

 

Like Free Will - Chess is only a concept. A structure of rules and ideas from which moves are made and games are played. Bit like life.

 

In chess occasionally a player will make a move known as a 'novelty' a move outside of the prescribed strategy book of move and counter move - positional discipline and so on..Novelties at the highest level are very rare but do occur from time to time. The novelty is often counter-intuitive and bias passive, it can only occur due to the human minds ability to to see something when thousands of other times in exact same game positions other players haven't seen the move. Within a conceptual framework it codifies all the schema of 'free will'. Once man became aware of himself outside the prescribed boundaries of nature (ritual behavior, survival and so on) in that moment he has 'free will'.

 

Nietzsche's Ubermensch is a very good guide to the ability of the will to overcome everything else. To overcome the limits of intelligence, surroundings and circumstance. Free Will is the moment that man replaced god as the final arbiter of his actions.

 

Without the ability or circumstance to deploy free will man becomes depressed and dysfunctional. The possibity that he can do anything at any moment to change his circumstance is what keeps him going and he doesn't need God to OK it either.

 

As a concept with no a priori evidence we can only observe what happens to man when 'free will' is removed ie in a Prison...His self- identity over a very short period becomes delineated by his surrounding. You can argue that society is a 'bigger prison' but that's another story...Perhaps a story closer to the Ranger particle.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Park Life

[adios 717]

As you've said, the novelty move still came within the framework of the human mind and by extension the game.  A better example would be if a player somehow broke the rules and the game continued as normal.

 

Where do you think this will to power comes from?  It's programmed, like anything else.

 

I don't buy the lack of a priori either; I've laid it out, and you've yet to refute it (at least in my eyes).

[Park Life 70]

You can't refute a concept because a concept has to have previously agreed parameters.

 

We'd have to agree on what this 'programming' is.....You can't dispute one concept by artifice (the juxtaposition of anther concept - programming or man machine or whatever).

 

When you say its programmed that also is just a concept. Man as a machine is a concept. God is a concept. Chess is a concept. Ideas don't prevail because they are true they prevail because enough people agree on them. You have no proof that free will doesn't exist like I can't prove it does. I and Nietzsche can only show you what happens when you remove it from the equation. Despair and dysfunction.

 

edit

 

If you're only saying that we can never actually have complete and true free will then I agree with that as Nietzsche posits as his work becomes more refined. He did end up wearing his sisters clothes mind.

He qualifies a lot as he goes on and ends up saying that a type of 'free will' is self evident with regard to ambition and achievement - 'Will to Power'.

 

Good discussion this.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Park Life

[adios 717]

Are you really going to make me write a formal treatise here?

 

I guess I'm asking us to make some assumptions.  Let me come back to you with something better thought out (if not quite a philosophical work).

 

Thanks for the proper challenge btw.

 

Maybe I can tag @Rayvin in for the weekend.

[adios 717]

5 hours ago, Rayvin said:

soul

Don't even start!

[adios 717]

Haven't been sleeping quite right of late, so haven't gotten back to this.

 

Let's just define the machine to start with, so we at least have something to dismantle:

 

All emotions are derived from the endocrine system that are then fed into the limbic system that decides which become long-term memories (by the strength of the chemicals).

 

The prefrontal cortex then calls upon those memories when faced with a decision.

 

ie.  Should I smoke this cigarette? = pleasure memory vs shame memory.

 

 

 

Also happened to read a poignant article wrt our chess discussion at the weekend that I must post (mainly for amusement).