Junior doctors' strike

[Dr Gloom 19735]

FT leader, for balance

 

Britain’s National Health Service is entering a new and turbulent period in its history. No issue is more indicative of the crisis it faces than the pay dispute, now into its fourth month, between the government and England’s junior doctors . On Tuesday, thousands of medics may escalate strike action over the issue by withdrawing all labour, including emergency cover, for two days. This unprecedented act will cause severe disruption, potentially putting patients at risk.

 

The dispute has arisen because the government is imposing a new contract on junior doctors which sharply reduces overtime pay for Saturday working. The battle between the British Medical Association and Jeremy Hunt, the health secretary, is complex and both sides are open to criticism. But the BMA’s decision to raise the stakes — coming as the NHS already faces severe financial pressures — cannot be justified.

 

Mr Hunt is right to press for a new doctors’ contract. He wants the NHS to be adequately staffed at weekends, a commitment the Conservatives made in their last election manifesto. There is evidence, albeit contested, that death rates for those admitted to hospital between Friday and Monday are higher compared with the rest of the week. Mr Hunt’s new contract is aimed at securing the necessary weekend staffing in a way the NHS can afford.

 

The health secretary has not handled the dispute well. Junior doctors do an arduous job, work long hours and are not well paid by the standards of other professions. They are leaving the NHS in growing numbers. Last year, just 52 per cent of graduates from medical school chose to stay in the health service, the lowest proportion in its history. Mr Hunt could have approached this negotiation with more tact and diplomacy.

 

Even so, the BMA is now overplaying its hand. Mr Hunt is giving doctors a 13.5 per cent rise in basic pay. He has also, in the course of negotiations, extended the amount of Saturday pay that can be classed at the higher overtime rate. The BMA has made few, if any, concessions. It appears increasingly driven by a desire to damage the government rather than to seek a reasonable settlement.

 

The BMA has appealed to public sympathy by suggesting that the future of the NHS is at stake in this strike. But the problems of health service underfunding go far deeper than this dispute. The NHS has been exempted from the austerity programmes imposed on other government services; but the current annual increase of one per cent per annum in UK health spending is below the historical average of three per cent. While France and Germany spend about 11 per cent of GDP on health services, the figure for Britain is 8.5 per cent.

 

As Britain’s elderly population grows, the pressure on UK health services will worsen. Politicians therefore face unpalatable choices. If they are to maintain current levels of service, they will either need to increase taxation to fund the NHS or introduce user charges on some services — or a mixture of the two. There is no political alternative to this.

 

It has long been said of the British that they desire European standards of healthcare but insist on paying US levels of tax. If the BMA wants its members to be better paid, it should be making a broader argument about the need for increased public funding of the heath service. Its strike action may end up securing more money for doctors. But victory will only come at the expense of some other part of the cash-strapped NHS.

[ewerk 26168]

I'll refer you to gemmill's post as to what is wrong with forcing people to needlessly work a 7 day week.

 

The physical resources might be there to facilitate a fully 7 day NHS but the human and monetary resources are not and never will be. Do you think Hunt is stupid and doesn't know this? If you agree this is unlikely would you like to speculate what Hunt's ulterior motive might be?

 

Oh Gemmill's just in a huff because he was asked to do an hour of work on a Sunday. He'd be the same if he was asked to do an hour of work on a Friday.

 

I said in the OP that I believe that Hunt is full of shit. It is a cost cutting exercise but that doesn't necessarily make it wrong.

[ewerk 26168]

Are you an employer these days by any chance, ewerk?

 

Yes. And a fucking kind-hearted one at that.

[Gemmill 34166]

 

Yes. And a fucking kind-hearted one at that.

You sound it. I bet you wouldn't think twice about ringing someone on a Sunday too.

[trophyshy 6432]

Someone senior at work who I don't even work for rang me during the day on Sunday. I'd love to say I couldn't believe it, but I totally could. Basically asking where I was and what I was doing cos he needed me to do some work for him.

 

Needless to say I didn't do it but where did employers ever get the balls to think that that sort of thing is perfectly acceptable.

 

I'd told him I wasn't going to be home til the evening so it would have to wait, and I got a text two hours later saying "what time are you going to be home this evening because I need this stuff today." On a fucking Sunday. Suck my balls.

 

I hope you stood on his neck when you gave it to him late Monday afternoon.

[Alex 30239]

He took Monday off

[Gemmill 34166]

Emailed him Monday morning asking what it was he wanted. No reply yet.[emoji38]

[trophyshy 6432]

Christmas cards are overrated anyway.

[Kid Dynamite 5881]

As I understand it a lot of junior doctors work 70 hours a week now but there is inbuilt flexibility that allows those with families to take the odd weekend off and also rules that try and prevent them working a ridiculous number of hours in a row.

 

The new contract not only removes the long hours rule but it also means weekends are pretty much mandatory. As there is no extra money this means quality of life changes for no gains. If I was in their position I'd be leaving the country pronto.

Basically. The new contract makes it much easier to draft doctors in to work weekends when the bosses want. Junior

Docs being anyone below a consultant btw which includes many folk in their 30s with families who have spent the last 15 years working 70hour weeks to get to a point where they can expect reasonable working hours

 

Doctors lose this and it's Nurses next. Then Police, Paramedics, Fire Brigade etc.

 

Then because you've won once you have another bash at introducing a flat rate across 24/7 working. It's Pandora's box

[The Fish 8947]

Majority of my Dr mates are striking and, if reasonable changes aren't made to the proposal, will be leaving the NHS. This isn't about pay for them, one lad would actually be financially better off, this is about hours, safe working practices and this government systematically tearing down the NHS.

 

The graphic j69 put up is missing a final piece. After the contracts are awarded to ABC Healthcare, Hunt and his cronies will get highly paid jobs on their board and we'll pay through the nose for health insurance to afford that little pleasure.

[ewerk 26168]

Majority of my Dr mates are striking and, if reasonable changes aren't made to the proposal, will be leaving the NHS. This isn't about pay for them, one lad would actually be financially better off, this is about hours, safe working practices

 

Haven't those issues been resolved?

[Christmas Tree 3997]

[Christmas Tree 3997]

Seems to boil down to Saturday pay

[Renton 17606]

Yes, of course that's all there is to it.

[Christmas Tree 3997]

Yes, of course that's all there is to it.

I think there's a lot of baggage and dross being bundled into it. At the end of the day it's a negotiation over money. At a certain level the parties will agree.

 

Looking at that chart, both sides are fairly close apart from the Saturday.

 

Public services are just coming under the same squeeze as the private sectors had to suffer for decades. Plenty of hard grafting manufacturing staff who once got good money for 9-5 with big bucks for overtime, now working even harder for less money on horrible continental shifts.

[Renton 17606]

Thanks for the insight CT, as always, much appreciated.

[Kid Dynamite 5881]

'Plenty of hard grafting manufacturing staff who once got good money for 9-5 with big bucks for overtime, now working even harder for less money on horrible continental shifts.'

 

So the answer is to inflict that on everyone

[The Fish 8947]

'Plenty of hard grafting manufacturing staff who once got good money for 9-5 with big bucks for overtime, now working even harder for less money on horrible continental shifts.'

 

So the answer is to inflict that on everyone

coming from a bloke whose idea of grafting is hanging around a supermarket to drive a biddy home. What he does for a job I do as a favour.

 

Knackered doctors are more likely to make life threatening mistakes, but fuck getting more staff in cos it'll cost more.

 

When the NHS is finally ruined by the tories CT will be the 1st to be on here asking which is the cheapest health insurance because he can't afford that and whatever hobby he's flirting with now.

[NJS 3960]

There's no alternative though that's the tory mantra.

[Gemmill 34166]

Yeah the acceptance of people getting fucked as just how it should be is what's horribly wrong here. You get a bunch of workers trying to stand up for themselves and instead of agreeing with them, you get people shrugging their shoulders and going "well it happened to me/him/them, so why not you too".

 

And that's setting aside the wild hours that these junior doctors are already working.

[Kid Dynamite 5881]

He fucking charges double on bank holidays etc. The hypocritical bastard

[PaddockLad 14527]

I think there's a lot of baggage and dross being bundled into it. At the end of the day it's a negotiation over money. At a certain level the parties will agree.

Looking at that chart, both sides are fairly close apart from the Saturday.

Public services are just coming under the same squeeze as the private sectors had to suffer for decades. Plenty of hard grafting manufacturing staff who once got good money for 9-5 with big bucks for overtime, now working even harder for less money on horrible continental shifts.

Taxi driver agrees with family firm director that we should value highly skilled doctors the same as teenagers hungover on Sunday morning stacking shelves in sainsburys and dolly birds on production lines keeping an eye on press machines....."quel fuckin surprise"

 

The ins and outs of it are irrelevant in a way, for me it's about who we value in society. And before you get smart, doctors pay income tax and national insurance the same as any other fucker. No one asks an accountant to save their child's life though...

[ewerk 26168]

Taxi driver agrees with family firm director that we should value highly skilled doctors the same as teenagers hungover on Sunday morning stacking shelves in sainsburys and dolly birds on production lines keeping an eye on press machines....."quel fuckin surprise"

 

Where the fuck did I say that?

[Christmas Tree 3997]

coming from a bloke whose idea of grafting is hanging around a supermarket to drive a biddy home. What he does for a job I do as a favour.

 

Knackered doctors are more likely to make life threatening mistakes, but fuck getting more staff in cos it'll cost more.

 

When the NHS is finally ruined by the tories CT will be the 1st to be on here asking which is the cheapest health insurance because he can't afford that and whatever hobby he's flirting with now.

1. I'd get help if you spend your spare time hanging around supermarkets looking out for old ladies.

 

2. Junior Doctors are not been asked to work longers hours.

 

The whole reason the BMA walked away was purely down to not getting premium overtime for working a Saturday. It's all about money.

[Howmanheyman 26605]

Yeah the acceptance of people getting fucked as just how it should be is what's horribly wrong here. You get a bunch of workers trying to stand up for themselves and instead of agreeing with them, you get people shrugging their shoulders and going "well it happened to me/him/them, so why not you too".

 

And that's setting aside the wild hours that these junior doctors are already working.

I've said similar for years. The trouble is a few people are a mixture of fucking gullible who swallow a newspaper's narrative and/or employers spin or are just bitten by the big green monster. The first instinct is 'we don't get that! Get them on what we have/get.' Rather than 'why aren't we getting what they get?'

 

I also had a new manager, (ex-colleague) phone me up wanting to discuss something fairly trivial about a work related matter, wanting info etc when I'd just got up from a 12 hour nightshift on my first day off. I just told him I'd see him when I was next back in and that I was now on my rest days. Needless to say when I next saw him it 'didn't matter'.