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15 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

So you think we should close our eyes, bury our heads in the sand, and not understand what the people who just voted in the worst president in history are saying about him now - and just kinda hope that it doesn't happen again?

 

I'm not advocating for their views being held up as some kind of truth, or balance against factual analysis. I'm saying that their views should be aired and understood. Primarily so they can be challenged or considered from a policy perspective. And I'm not even talking about the actual fascists here, I'm talking about the idiots. The same sorts of idiots who voted for Brexit.

 

In what way would you air the views of fascists, racists, misogynists and idiots without giving them a platform from which they can proclaim acceptance?

Edited by Kevin Carr's Gloves
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29 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

 

In what way would you air the views of fascists, racists, misogynists and idiots without giving them a platform from which they can proclaim acceptance?

 

I didn't say the fascists, I said the idiots. And if they are complaining about poor living conditions, little aspiration, reduced job opportunities, etc - then this is something that should be considered. Sure, the reasons they put forward for why this happens will ultimately be prejudiced ones, but we can tackle the issues and the prejudice at the same time.

 

Frankly though, what I meant by my original comment really was that I have no lens on what Trump voters think of him issue to issue, and so little understanding of how the left is supposed to 'resist'. And from what I've seen so far, it's not calling everyone under the sun a racist. That seems to be helping Trump.

 

I saw something in the Guardian the other day that stunned me a bit tbh, as much as it follows logically based on supply and demand; factory wages in the UK are rising as employers have to pay more to get workers, what with immigration from the EU falling.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/08/shortage-of-factory-workers-starts-to-push-up-pay-rates#comments

 

So clearly, concerns about immigration taking jobs and suppressing pay - in certain sectors - are valid. Why can we not address this? Our refusal to listen to people who feel this way is not helping and is creating Trumps and Brexits.

 

I can't get my head around why some people are so determined just to pretend that this issue isn't happening, and that we can make it go away with name calling and looking the other way.

Edited by Rayvin
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1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

I didn't say the fascists, I said the idiots. And if they are complaining about poor living conditions, little aspiration, reduced job opportunities, etc - then this is something that should be considered. Sure, the reasons they put forward for why this happens will ultimately be prejudiced ones, but we can tackle the issues and the prejudice at the same time.

 

Frankly though, what I meant by my original comment really was that I have no lens on what Trump voters think of him issue to issue, and so little understanding of how the left is supposed to 'resist'. And from what I've seen so far, it's not calling everyone under the sun a racist. That seems to be helping Trump.

 

I saw something in the Guardian the other day that stunned me a bit tbh, as much as it follows logically based on supply and demand; factory wages in the UK are rising as employers have to pay more to get workers, what with immigration from the EU falling.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/08/shortage-of-factory-workers-starts-to-push-up-pay-rates#comments

 

So clearly, concerns about immigration taking jobs - in certain sectors - are valid. Why can we not address this? Our refusal to listen to people who feel this way is not helping and is creating Trumps and Brexits.

 

I can't get my head around why some people are so determined just to pretend that this issue isn't happening, and that we can make it go away with name calling and looking the other way.

 

Factories are having to pay more that's great, up to a point, I they continue to have to pay high rates for unskilled workers those pay rises will make the factories in the UK non viable as they will start to cost more than they are worth.

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13 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

 

Factories are having to pay more that's great, up to a point, I they continue to have to pay high rates for unskilled workers those pay rises will make the factories in the UK non viable as they will start to cost more than they are worth.

 

Yep, but as far as your average worker is concerned, you can see why they believe immigration is too high. The counter argument is the establishment of a living wage that is enforced properly I guess.

 

All I'm saying is I wish we could deal with these issues instead of letting them ruin our countries.

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1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

 

So you think we should close our eyes, bury our heads in the sand, and not understand what the people who just voted in the worst president in history are saying about him now - and just kinda hope that it doesn't happen again?

 

I'm not advocating for their views being held up as some kind of truth, or balance against factual analysis. I'm saying that their views should be aired and understood. Primarily so they can be challenged or considered from a policy perspective. And I'm not even talking about the actual fascists here, I'm talking about the idiots. The same sorts of idiots who voted for Brexit.

The problem with that is that, as you say, they’re idiots. And idiots don’t change their minds because of facts and logic.

All you do is give them a platform to attract more idiots to their cause.

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I think the sooner we realise we're all idiots the better we'll be for it.

 

There isn't some magical divide between "idiot" and "not idiot" (at least until Trump/Brexit happened :razz:).

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Quote

 

Cohen stood and plead guilty to charges, including that in October 2016, he, in coordination with “the candidate” arranged to make a payment to an “individual with information that would be harmful to the candidate and to the campaign.”

Cohen said he used a company that was under his control to make the payment of $130,000 and those monies were later repaid to me by the candidate and that this was done “for the principal purpose of influencing the election.”

 

:panic:  

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6 minutes ago, ewerk said:

So I assume that Manafort hasn't been co-operating up to this point? Being found guilty on eight charges might change that. Surely Trump couldn't pardon him?

 

Aye Manafort hasn't cooperated. There are two schools of thought on it - either he thinks Trump will pardon him or he thinks Russia will poison him so can't take the risk. Or it may be that he just hasn't cooperated YET. He's still got another trial to go later in the year.

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Yeah, I was wondering if he was just arrogant enough to think he could win in court. This verdict may have shown him that he can't win the next one and so might be more willing to co-operate.

Though if Cohen has evidence that Trump knew about the Russian hacking then that could be game over.

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5 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Yeah, I was wondering if he was just arrogant enough to think he could win in court. This verdict may have shown him that he can't win the next one and so might be more willing to co-operate.

Though if Cohen has evidence that Trump knew about the Russian hacking then that could be game over.

 

Possibly. I suppose if you've been in that rich man world where people just don't get found guilty, you might be daft enough. The fact that his defence team literally offered no defence to the prosecution though, would suggest that he would have to know he was fucked.

 

I think I'd probably take life in a cushy prison and the possibility of a pardon over a cup of radioactive tea though.

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Btw the Luke Harding book Collusion is a really good read. I read it on holiday recently and it lays out all of this shot in journalistic detail and there's just no question whatsoever that Trump is fucked here. It's just a matter of time and the Democrats winning back the house.

 

The stuff on Manafort in the book is unreal.

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I think Mueller handed off the Cohen and Manafort stuff in order to get the leverage for making them cooperate on the big stuff. 

 

He knows he needs a shit load of smoking guns to get enough republican senators to vote for impeachment. 

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On the Beeb the other day there was a report about the white, conservative 'Christian' Republican voters who'd previously been the most concerned with how a politician's private life affected their ability to operate as a politician but how they were now the group for whom it concerned them the least. It claimed they'd become 'more forgiving'. I mean, ffs. They've just demonstrated they're the massive hypocrites everybody already knew them to be, that's all.

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17 hours ago, Alex said:

On the Beeb the other day there was a report about the white, conservative 'Christian' Republican voters who'd previously been the most concerned with how a politician's private life affected their ability to operate as a politician but how they were now the group for whom it concerned them the least. It claimed they'd become 'more forgiving'. I mean, ffs. They've just demonstrated they're the massive hypocrites everybody already knew them to be, that's all.

:good:

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  • Andrew changed the title to President Biden

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