President Biden

[Ken 119]

2 hours ago, Rayvin said:

Feels like he's won to me. Appeasement from Biden and the EU, really underlining the decline of the west.

 

Dismal to see.

America want nothing to do with it because they have been in quite a few useless wars in the past that acheived nothing, and also because they don't see Russia as a threat to the status quo. They view China as their only threat to global order and their ability not to be dictated to militarily and economically.

[Toonpack 6766]

6 hours ago, Renton said:

 

I was going through my childhood stuff this weekend at my mum's and found a Phillip's Atlas I used to love browsing as a kid, copyrighted 1978. Looking at the political map of Europe, I was interested that Ukraine was the same colour as Russia with only the slightest demarcation lines. The Ukraine was a fully fledged part of the USSR proper in contrast to satellite states like Poland.

 

Point is its different to the NATO countries for important historical and geographical reasons. The situation is complicated but to suggest any of the blame lies with NATO or the EU is nonsense. In fact, the fact Russia arent knocking on the door of Poland or the Baltic states is proof in itself NATO works. Give your head a shake. 

Ukraine was subjugated by Stalin (and suffered genocide by starvation), and was indeed part of the USSR, when Hitler invaded Russia his troops were initially met in Ukraine like liberators, then of course, following behind the troops came the death squads and things rapidly changed. Yet another of Hitlers major mistakes. (In late 19th century a quarter of the worlds Jews lived in Ukraine).

 

Ukrainian's have long seen themselves as autonomous tbh, first independent for a short time in 1918/20 albeit with western parts under Polish/Czech control, Ukrainian is a distinct language. Similarly Poland became a thing in 1918, but has lasted a bit longer as a country/state in the consciousness.

[PaddockLad 14529]

 

[Dr Gloom 19750]

6 hours ago, Rayvin said:

Feels like he's won to me. Appeasement from Biden and the EU, really underlining the decline of the west.

 

Dismal to see.

Yup, it’s the threat to the global order that troubles me. Liberal democracy has been successfully undermined in recent years. What does the future hold if Putin, China et al know the west has been sufficiently weakened that they can act with impunity? 
 

Perhaps I’m being pessimistic but I’m getting a sense of deja vu re Hitler’s annexation of Sudetenland. See the Netflix film Munich for a reminder.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Dr Gloom

[Toonpack 6766]

25 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Yuo, it’s the thread to the global order that troubles me. Liberal democracy has been successfully undermined in recent years. What does the future hold if Putin, China et al know the west has been sufficiently weakened that they can act with impunity? 
 

Perhaps I’m being pessimistic but I’m getting a sense of deja vu re Hitler’s annexation of Sudetenland. See the Netflix film Munich for a reminder.

 

 

Undermined with Russian money Brexit/Trump etc. Putin’s played a blinder.

 

Russia’s economy ranks between Spain and Italy, could strangle him if there was the will.

 

Meanwhile:

 

[Renton 17634]

So the consensus here is that NATO should have proactively defended an ex-soviet state? I disagree, I think we're handling this in the right way. Hit Russia with more sanctions, encourage and supply an insurrection, and find alternative supply chains to Russian commodities and energy, which will clearly take time. I'd add that comparisons with WW2 in a post-nuclear world are bogus imo. 

[Dr Gloom 19750]

 

47 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

Undermined with Russian money Brexit/Trump etc. Putin’s played a blinder.

 

Russia’s economy ranks between Spain and Italy, could strangle him if there was the will.

 

Meanwhile:

 

Yeah, I don’t think he would have been quite so bold pre-2016.

 

Crimea was the test case. Throw in some cyber warfare, interfere in an election or two and here we are. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Dr Gloom

[ewerk 26192]

Oil prices have reached a seven year high. So on the plus side, that should be an extra £100m for us to spend in the summer transfer window.

[ewerk 26192]

9 hours ago, Renton said:

It's a military deterrent for its members. If Lithuania or Finland is attacked, we go to war. Not for the Ukraine though. Or Ireland for that matter @ewerk.

 

KCG and his yacht buddies didn't scare us. We can handle a few drunk Russians.

[Rayvin 4949]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

So the consensus here is that NATO should have proactively defended an ex-soviet state? I disagree, I think we're handling this in the right way. Hit Russia with more sanctions, encourage and supply an insurrection, and find alternative supply chains to Russian commodities and energy, which will clearly take time. I'd add that comparisons with WW2 in a post-nuclear world are bogus imo. 

 

Whether we have handled it in the right way comes down to whether the Ukraine ever gets its territories back. We look weak as fuck to me, Putin wouldn't have gone in if he didn't think he'd won. 

 

I'm not saying we should be throwing nukes around, I'm saying that if we were doing diplomacy right, this never would have happened. If we'd encouraged Putin to join the EU, or let him join NATO when he asked. Why is Russia still on the table as a "threat" at all? The answer is that democracy fails us in moments like this. We are inconsistent through government and policy change, Russia is not. We are slow to react and pivot to new ideas and developments because we rule by committee, Russia is not.

 

Putin is currently shining a light on what the West is. What is revealed in that light will determine how Russia, China, Brazil and various other regional powers will engage with us in future. So far, it looks grim. Biden looks weak.

[Renton 17634]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Whether we have handled it in the right way comes down to whether the Ukraine ever gets its territories back. We look weak as fuck to me, Putin wouldn't have gone in if he didn't think he'd won. 

 

I'm not saying we should be throwing nukes around, I'm saying that if we were doing diplomacy right, this never would have happened. If we'd encouraged Putin to join the EU, or let him join NATO when he asked. Why is Russia still on the table as a "threat" at all? The answer is that democracy fails us in moments like this. We are inconsistent through government and policy change, Russia is not. We are slow to react and pivot to new ideas and developments because we rule by committee, Russia is not.

 

Putin is currently shining a light on what the West is. What is revealed in that light will determine how Russia, China, Brazil and various other regional powers will engage with us in future. So far, it looks grim. Biden looks weak.

 

Wait, Putin asked to join NATO? Really? You rhino the EU should accept a country as corrupt as Russia, really? Howay man.  Anyway it seems to me he is attempting to rebuild the soviet empire.

 

And your only counteroffer to what we did is "do diplomacy better"? Can you be more specific? Dealing with dictators is always hard and escalating things to physical wars, which strikes me was the only option here after diplomacy failed, is usually disastrous. But NATO's function is essentially to protect Western Europe.  I'm confident they will do this. 

[Rayvin 4949]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Wait, Putin asked to join NATO? Really? You rhino the EU should accept a country as corrupt as Russia, really? Howay man.  Anyway it seems to me he is attempting to rebuild the soviet empire.

 

And your only counteroffer to what we did is "do diplomacy better"? Can you be more specific? Dealing with dictators is always hard and escalating things to physical wars, which strikes me was the only option here after diplomacy failed, is usually disastrous. But NATO's function is essentially to protect Western Europe.  I'm confident they will do this. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule

 

Yes the EU should have accepted him if it averted stuff like this and brought him to the table. We'll inevitably have to end up in bed with Russia long term anyway.

 

Both of these are 'counteroffers' of good diplomacy - bringing people to the table rather than holding them up as the enemy. But it's more than that though - this shows that as far as Putin is concerned, he 'won' in Crimea. Whatever we did in response to that clearly failed. We therefore miscalculated that our response would be sufficient to deter further aggression.

 

Putin could take the whole country if he wanted to and we'd do nothing beyond apparently ineffectual sanctions, that's what I now think. He's compromising international order, every unreacted to event like this, everything he 'gets away with' loosens the bonds that tie the world together.

[Dr Gloom 19750]

24 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule

 

Yes the EU should have accepted him if it averted stuff like this and brought him to the table. We'll inevitably have to end up in bed with Russia long term anyway.

 

Both of these are 'counteroffers' of good diplomacy - bringing people to the table rather than holding them up as the enemy. But it's more than that though - this shows that as far as Putin is concerned, he 'won' in Crimea. Whatever we did in response to that clearly failed. We therefore miscalculated that our response would be sufficient to deter further aggression.

 

Putin could take the whole country if he wanted to and we'd do nothing beyond apparently ineffectual sanctions, that's what I now think. He's compromising international order, every unreacted to event like this, everything he 'gets away with' loosens the bonds that tie the world together.

 

it was sanctions after crimea too. then a few years later putin is staging the world cup with the leaders of france and croatia in his VIP box for the final. he's taking the piss because he knows we are weak and he will get away with it. 

[Renton 17634]

I assume you know the EU has strict entry requirements particularly around democracy and human rights. I'm sure similar caveats apply to NATO (although Turkey is in NATO so probably not). Also the raisin detre for NATO is to defend against Russia!

 

If Russia wants to join the west, it needs to change, not us. Accepting Russia and Putin into our political, military, and economic systems is the definition of appeasement 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Renton

[Renton 17634]

2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

it was sanctions after crimea too. then a few years later putin is staging the world cup with the leaders of france and croatia in his VIP box for the final. he's taking the piss because he knows we are weak and he will get away with it. 

 

Sanctions have and will bite. Russia has 3 times the population of the UK but significantly less GDP, partly because of sanctions. It has two things going for it. The world's biggest nuclear arsenal and large energy reserves. Nowt we can do about the former which is a real problem. The latter we can diversify our energy needs and it stops being leverage. Will take a couple more decades though.

[Rayvin 4949]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

I assume you know the EU has strict entry requirements particularly around democracy and human rights. I'm sure similar caveats apply to NATO. If Russia wants to join the west, it needs to change, not us. Accepting Russia and Putin into our political, military, and economic systems is the definition of appeasement 

 

No it isn't. Standing by as he conquers neighbouring states is the definition of appeasement. Bringing him to the table so that we can interconnect, foster trust and lasting relationships, thus potentially encouraging and supporting change, is IMO at least, mature and rational.

 

We will agree to disagree on this in the end I suspect, but I'm disgusted with the West on this. Disgusted with Putin too, he's a complete fucking psychopath, but we in the West clearly don't care about anything beyond our own borders anymore. Internationalism is doomed.

[Dr Gloom 19750]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

No it isn't. Standing by as he conquers neighbouring states is the definition of appeasement. Bringing him to the table so that we can interconnect, foster trust and lasting relationships, thus potentially encouraging and supporting change, is IMO at least, mature and rational.

 

We will agree to disagree on this in the end I suspect, but I'm disgusted with the West on this. Disgusted with Putin too, he's a complete fucking psychopath, but we in the West clearly don't care about anything beyond our own borders anymore. Internationalism is doomed.

 

western support only extends to those in the nato club, apparently 

[Renton 17634]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

No it isn't. Standing by as he conquers neighbouring states is the definition of appeasement. Bringing him to the table so that we can interconnect, foster trust and lasting relationships, thus potentially encouraging and supporting change, is IMO at least, mature and rational.

 

We will agree to disagree on this in the end I suspect, but I'm disgusted with the West on this. Disgusted with Putin too, he's a complete fucking psychopath, but we in the West clearly don't care about anything beyond our own borders anymore. Internationalism is doomed.

 

Using military force beyond our borders has been a disaster EVERY SINGLE TIME. Let alone against a nuclear super power.

[Renton 17634]

2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

western support only extends to those in the nato club, apparently 

 

Yes. Of course that's the case, it's a defensive organisation. You need the UN for other disputes. 

[Rayvin 4949]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Using military force beyond our borders has been a disaster EVERY SINGLE TIME. Let alone against a nuclear super power.

 

Who said using military force? It's an option but if we had any semblance of competence, if the West wasn't in compete turmoil, it wouldn't have come to this. We're just about to enter the power vacuum left behind by the much diminished US.

 

We should have been sending out olive branches to Putin long before this - now, he's going to continue taking apart everything we believe in. He secured Trump, Brexit, Crimea, and now Ukraine. He's getting everything he wants and we're just standing there, bending over.

[Renton 17634]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Who said using military force? It's an option but if we had any semblance of competence, if the West wasn't in compete turmoil, it wouldn't have come to this. We're just about to enter the power vacuum left behind by the much diminished US.

 

We should have been sending out olive branches to Putin long before this - now, he's going to continue taking apart everything we believe in. He secured Trump, Brexit, Crimea, and now Ukraine. He's getting everything he wants and we're just standing there, bending over.

 

We've done diplomacy. We've done and are doing sanctions. What else is there other than military? You say we haven't done enough diplomacy or sanctions, whilst at the same time admitting Putin is a psychopath. You also want ot invite Putin into the EU. You're all over the place here. 

[Rayvin 4949]

Just now, Renton said:

 

We've done diplomacy. We've done and are doing sanctions. What else is there other than military? You say we haven't done enough diplomacy or sanctions, whilst at the same time admitting Putin is a psychopath. You also want ot invite Putin into the EU. You're all over the place here. 

 

Why does him being a psychopath mean he can't join the EU? Thatcher was a psychopath and we were in the EU. Besides, we'd be inviting Russia, not Putin. Russia will outlast Putin.

 

I'm fine with my position on this. The fact that we've got to where we are shows a complete failure of Western strategy to contain Russia. You seem to talk as if there was nothing we could have done to stop this happening. That's ludicrous IMO. We have failed.

[Monkeys Fist 38599]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

What else is there other than military?

Novichok the fucker. 
 

See how he likes them apples. 

[Sonatine 9947]

[ewerk 26192]

Russia are in the G20, they're permanent members of the UN Security Council. They have been invited into the fold. The idea that mere diplomacy or being nicer to them would have prevented this is for the birds.