adios 717 Posted September 3, 2017 Author Share Posted September 3, 2017 5 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Well there you've hit on my whole concern about the entire political climate. More or less, anyway. The advantage with Trump (and I said this repeatedly in the build up to his election) is that he's far right and incompetent. If they had someone far right and capable, that would be a serious problem. Peterson isn't going to end up in a similar position though. For one thing he's Canadian, and Canada is one of the most left wing states going. The worst you could say, I think, is that he might be a gateway drug for people who then end up on the far right. And he might well be. But I don't think he's trying to be that, and the only reason that this discussion is happening at all is because of the drive to reduce so much of the political dialogue to racial problems. The left genuinely needs to build a political movement around economic progress, and the longer it fails to do so, the more people will be pushed aside. That's not Peterson's fault - he's just talking about what he believes in. The only reason he's relevant at all is that the left has not made any response to his arguments (that I've seen), and that this therefore becomes a stick to beat us with. Rebel media are slightly to the right of the mail, according to mediafactbias. I wouldn't worry too much more than you would for the Daily Mail being involved itself. Having said all of that, I don't really care about his affiliations because I'm not investing anything in the guy on a personal level. I just think his arguments are logical. I'm not concerned about his motivation or even the majority of his work, I'm concerned about the impact of that 20%. The reality is he has ended up in a position of political power and we have to deal with the impact of the situation rather than anything to do with him personally. It's exactly as you put it, he's potentially a gateway drug for even intelligent people being swayed to the right. I completely agree with you about the state of the current dialogue on both sides btw Sieg Heil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted September 3, 2017 Author Share Posted September 3, 2017 9 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Interesting. But the thing is, these 'lost people' on the right have put up a siege mentality. A single person trying to reason with them is unlikely to yield any results. You need to genuine, earnest leftwing movement which can reach out and make a solid case for improving their lives, whilst at the same time refusing to abandon minorities in the same economic category. Individual people aren't going to be able to make the change, aside from forcing the left to wake the fuck up. EDIT - I actually think Bernie Sanders could have done this. Aye, that all makes a lot of sense. It's going to take more than a bowel movement to get through to people. You do have to worry about the futility if I can't get through to my own brother though. I was also hopeful that Trump would 1) be an ineffectual president 2) more moderate in power and 3) a bumbling incompetent who swung us all a little to the left. He's turned out to be far more dangerous than I imagined, though. You'd have to concede we were wrong on that front at this point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4963 Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, adios said: I'm not concerned about his motivation or even the majority of his work, I'm concerned about the impact of that 20%. The reality is he has ended up in a position of political power and we have to deal with the impact of the situation rather than anything to do with him personally. It's exactly as you put it, he's potentially a gateway drug for even intelligent people being swayed to the right. I completely agree with you about the state of the current dialogue on both sides btw Hide contents Sieg Heil Do you ever worry about left wing political correctness and identity politics being a gateway drug to Stalinism or Maoism? Mao killed 10+ million people of course. Ideas and discussions aren't the problem. The problems are the media narratives that are trying to use these ideas to assert control over Western populations and to turn them away from actions that are really in their best interests. The reason all this shit has come up, is because the economy has tanked. And the economy tanks, because stupid people vote for things that aren't in their favour, because of nonsense like which ethnic group they belong to and which ethnic groups might be trying to get into the country. All the while, very rich people of a range of different ethnicities, all get richer. The trick with all of this is to be able to look at the arguments for what they are, but not to sign up wholesale for the side they come from. Each argument on its merits. Or at least that should be the way to do it. The reality now, IMO, is that we DO need a narrative to turn this around, and that this narrative has to group together white working class people, and ethnic minority working class people - and join their interests with middle class people. 7 minutes ago, adios said: Aye, that all makes a lot of sense. It's going to take more than a bowel movement to get through to people. You do have to worry about the futility if I can't get through to my own brother though. I was also hopeful that Trump would 1) be an ineffectual president 2) more moderate in power and 3) a bumbling incompetent who swung us all a little to the left. He's turned out to be far more dangerous than I imagined, though. You'd have to concede we were wrong on that front at this point? I don't think we've reached the endgame on Trump, and I'm not 100% sure he's made things worse yet. The risk with Trump, IMO, is that he manages to persuade people that the reason he's failed to make anything better is because of Congress - and then he gets a second term to 'drain the congress swamp'. But I just don't see it, I think he's already a busted flush, and I think people will be looking for new answers to the same problems in 4 years time. He's warmongering more than I thought he would, I've conceded on that point already. What we need is for the left to properly take hold of the Democrats. Unofortunately, they seem to be failing to do so - and thus, we might re-run this in a few years time. White Americans are going to become a minority by 2050 I think I read. That's loads of time to whip up a racial shitstorm. The left really needs to sort itself out and get ready to confront this. BTW - you might well be right in everything you're saying, I'm just throwing down my full position at this point. I'm open to being wrong as ever. Edited September 3, 2017 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted September 3, 2017 Author Share Posted September 3, 2017 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Do you ever worry about left wing political correctness and identity politics being a gateway drug to Stalinism or Maoism? Mao killed 10+ million people of course. Ideas and discussions aren't the problem. The problems are the media narratives that are trying to use these ideas to assert control over Western populations and to turn them away from actions that are really in their best interests. The reason all this shit has come up, is because the economy has tanked. And the economy tanks, because stupid people vote for things that aren't in their favour, because of nonsense like which ethnic group they belong to and which ethnic groups might be trying to get into the country. All the while, very rich people of a range of different ethnicities, all get richer. The trick with all of this is to be able to look at the arguments for what they are, but not to sign up wholesale for the side they come from. Each argument on its merits. Or at least that should be the way to do it. The reality now, IMO, is that we DO need a narrative to turn this around, and that this narrative has to group together white working class people, and ethnic minority working class people - and join their interests with middle class people. I don't think we've reached the endgame on Trump, and I'm not 100% sure he's made things worse yet. The risk with Trump, IMO, is that he manages to persuade people that the reason he's failed to make anything better is because of Congress - and then he gets a second term to 'drain the congress swamp'. But I just don't see it, I think he's already a busted flush, and I think people will be looking for new answers to the same problems in 4 years time. He's warmongering more than I thought he would, I've conceded on that point already. What we need is for the left to properly take hold of the Democrats. Unofortunately, they seem to be failing to do so - and thus, we might re-run this in a few years time. White Americans are going to become a minority by 2050 I think I read. That's loads of time to whip up a racial shitstorm. The left really needs to sort itself out. 7 I don't worry about the left so much because to be frank intelligence and empathy have a (slight) liberal bias. It's great that you think through the issues in a logical fashion, but the reality is that most people (on both sides) are incapable of simple logical reasoning. We're not going to win that battle until there's a serious shift in education, and that'll take generations. We have to fight it on :quotes: hearts and (not so much) minds we have to fight it on self-interest. I don't think Trump's politics are that dangerous, I think we're already seeing the outcome (socially) of the movement that he's invigorated/legitimised. Edited September 3, 2017 by adios to be clear, his politics aren't so dangerous because he is ineffectual in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 (edited) It's a false dichotomy isn't it? Both sides serve the purpose of compounding a debate that is a million miles away from where the real enemy sits. The power base has a long history of supporting whichever side serves their purpose at the time. It's that and a load of clueless students and rednecks poking each other with sticks (while taking selfies). Edited September 3, 2017 by Park Life 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted September 3, 2017 Author Share Posted September 3, 2017 Something tickles me about Nazis taking selfies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4963 Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 The young right wingers in this country (centre right) have set up an opposition campaigning group to Momentum "Activate" is the Tory equivalent now. Unfortunately however, they've encountered schism two weeks after starting up, with the pro-Rees Mogg contingent having taken the group's Twitter account, and the pro-May contingent having gained the Facebook account. Both have reported each other to the police as 'hackers' and in amongst the drama, a whatsapp group conversation has been exposed wherein some of these young Tories talk about gassing chavs. All in all, a perfect homage to the Tories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30363 Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 What a bunch of cunts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26267 Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 There was a thread on Twitter about how hard it was to be a young Tory these days. My heart really went out to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 14030 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4963 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 That worm is gross mind. Also not sure who is being referred to? Alex Jones?? Does he stand in front of maps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30363 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 On 14/10/2017 at 11:35 PM, Meenzer said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S Norman 4 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 5 hours ago, Alex said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30363 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 I assumed that was who it was. The fact he's in his mid-30s and presumably thinks his twitter pic, with a tab dangling out the side of his mouth, is cool suggests she's not far off the mark in her assessment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4963 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Ah, Paul Joseph Watson. "The Leftists!!!" "Imagine my shock!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 8 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Ah, Paul Joseph Watson. "The Leftists!!!" "Imagine my shock!" But on closer inspection we found Gloom and renton to be Blairites remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19798 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Park Life said: But on closer inspection we found Gloom and renton to be Blairites remember. i'm no blairite. i just don't think he was awful as everyone likes to remember. take iraq out of the picture and his achievements don't look bad compared to the fuckwits in charge right now, who seem intent on destroying the country for future generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4963 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Just now, Dr Gloom said: i'm no blairite. i just don't think he was awful as everyone likes to remember. take iraq out of the picture and his achievements don't look bad compared to the fuckwits in charge right now, who seem intent on destroying the country for future generations. On a case by case basis this is right. And even when considering his ideological position, at the time, it looked right too. Looking back though, he's complicit in all of this, albeit potentially unwittingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30363 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Iraq's not easy to ignore though, is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19798 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, Rayvin said: On a case by case basis this is right. And even when considering his ideological position, at the time, it looked right too. Looking back though, he's complicit in all of this, albeit potentially unwittingly. best PM of my lifetime (if he had stayed out of iraq) #CT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19798 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, Alex said: Iraq's not easy to ignore though, is it? no. it was a disaster which we're still paying for today. domestically, he did better than he is often given credit for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30363 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: no. it was a disaster which we're still paying for today. domestically, he did better than he is often given credit for. I tend to agree fwiw, just making the point it cast a large shadow over both him and his party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19798 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Just now, Alex said: I tend to agree fwiw, just making the point it cast a large shadow over both him and his party. conversely, you could say that blair paved the way for more liberal, compassionate conservatism. plenty on the right hate what cameron stood for. though i'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30363 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Yeah, I guess it's too early to really assess that properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 (edited) Elon Musk is in trouble for sending an e mail to minority workers saying they need to develop a 'thicker skin' with reg to raciss issues at one of his plants. ((He's from South Afreekaa!)) Edited November 14, 2017 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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