Generic small time football blather thread FOREVER

[Alex 30231]

3 hours ago, essembeeofsunderland said:

Remember that Brazilian lad sitting on a London tube on his way to work.Was it 6 or 8 bullets that prevented him arriving at work that day? Neebody blamed if my memory serves me well.

There were mitigating circumstances like

[thebrokendoll 7085]

23 hours ago, Kid Dynamite said:

On a slightly calmer note, you do wonder whether the Atkinson case could be a watershed moment for the police re: culpability in these types of cases. In a similar vein to the increase in US prosecutions.
 

Mad that it's been 35years since a Police officer was charged with manslaughter when you consider how many deaths in custody there have been during that time. 

 

I doubt it very much.

it's not 35 years since a manslaughter charge, simon cunt harwood was acquitted of it over the death of ian tomlinson during the g20 protests in '09, if you're not particularly aware of the unlawful killing of tomlinson or wondering why harwood,'s middle name is cunt, try researching his history, it'll blow your mind how he's a free man.

when I was a teenager in the 70s my mother played badminton, (all women did!) she did so with marion towers. I remember vividly the death of her brother liddle and the subsequent inquiry which declared his death was justifiable homicide. EIGHT cunts went in to his cell and beat him that badly he died a few days later.

with regard to monk it's gonna be very interesting to see what his sentence is in comparison to what he deserves. the judge needs to call this right, but it doesn't look promising, rest assured if you or I had just been convicted of killing somebody in the manner in which monk did we wouldn't have been set free to go home and watch the football that evening.

the sentencing guidelines are between 10 to 16 years, I'd be willing to bet it doesn't come close.

it's also gonna be interesting to see what reaction a light sentence provokes and what might be all ready simmering in the background. because if monk is treated with kid gloves it makes a fucking mockery of 22 footballers taking the knee before a match.

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by thebrokendoll

[essembeeofsunderland 811]

14 hours ago, Alex said:

There were mitigating circumstances like

There usually are when an innocent person loses his life due to police actions.We’re still waiting for the cctv footage of him leaping the ticket barrier,which we were told by a police spokesman he did.Crucial evidence I think we can both agree on.Why let him board a bus AND a tube if he was ‘up to no good’ .

 

 

 

[PaddockLad 14511]

@thebrokendoll just to say later today in the US, a man who at the time was a serving  police officer got up one morning  almost certainly not intending to murder anyone  but will be sentenced for the murder of George Floyd. Obvs not all cops are kilkers in the US or the UK. There is a culture of impunity that is slowly dying but there's still a long way to go. Tasering  a clearly vulnerable man for 33 seconds (3 times as long as legalky prescribed) then booting him in the head twice must be at least wandering down the sane lane as putting your full weight on a person's windpipe for 10 mins...different justice systems obviously but that fucker who killed Dalian Atkinson is a very lucky boy..

 

[Alex 30231]

3 hours ago, essembeeofsunderland said:

There usually are when an innocent person loses his life due to police actions.We’re still waiting for the cctv footage of him leaping the ticket barrier,which we were told by a police spokesman he did.Crucial evidence I think we can both agree on.Why let him board a bus AND a tube if he was ‘up to no good’ .

 

 

 

I think there’s a good chance the bit about leaping over the barrier was bollocks. But what happened under the circumstances is a million miles away from the Dalian Atkinson case imo. The terrorists who carried out the tube and his bombings were the most culpable because of the subsequent atmosphere they created around London In the aftermath. It was a terrible mistake but I find difficult to believe they didn’t genuinely think they were taking out a suicide bomber. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Alex

[Kitman 2188]

18 hours ago, Alex said:

There were mitigating circumstances like

He looked foreign?

 

 

 

 

 

* safety wink *

[Meenzer 13943]

I believe the exact phrase used was that he "had Mongolian eyes"

[Toonpack 6766]

17 hours ago, Meenzer said:

I believe the exact phrase used was that he "had Mongolian eyes"

The song Kim Carnes rejected

[essembeeofsunderland 811]

On 25/06/2021 at 13:55, Alex said:

I think there’s a good chance the bit about leaping over the barrier was bollocks. But what happened under the circumstances is a million miles away from the Dalian Atkinson case imo. The terrorists who carried out the tube and his bombings were the most culpable because of the subsequent atmosphere they created around London In the aftermath. It was a terrible mistake but I find difficult to believe they didn’t genuinely think they were taking out a suicide bomber. 

He didn’t jump over the barrier,cctv proved that.He could have been apprehended before he arrived at the bus stop.At the bus stop.On the bus.After he exited the bus.Before he arrived at the tube station.He was followed closely from leaving his flat because there was a chance he was a danger to the public.You rightly highlight the atmosphere which was around at the time which no doubt put the police on high alert regarding possible future terrorist actions so why not act before he started mingling with the general public? We know why the police spokesman said he jumped the barrier.Why has the police officer who gave the police spokesman the statement never owned up to it? Am I right in saying the innocent Brazilian was initially described as having been wearing a padded jacket,as in a jacket which could have been hiding a suicide belt/bomb,and did this prove to be incorrect? 
It looks like they botched it up from him leaving his flat to putting 6-8 bullets in him,while he was 100% restrained in a busy tube.

We know,we know,no one person was at fault in anyway,it was the poor radio signal to blame. So this problem only came to light after the Brazilian was ‘taken out’ .

 

 

 

 

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

On 25/06/2021 at 14:00, Kitman said:

He looked foreign?

 

 

 

 

 

* safety wink *

 

Not required 

[Isegrim 8868]

 

[Sonatine 9929]

8 years, so out and about in 5?

[Kid Dynamite 5881]

6 hours ago, Isegrim said:

 

Interesting context;

-No intention to cause serious harm.

-The kicks alone did not cause serious injury.

-Acknowledgment that it was a very challenging situation and that Atkinson was so unhealthy he could have dropped dead at any minute.

...but ultimately, the decision to keep the taser on for 33 seconds rather than 10 seconds, and to kick him following the taser may have contributed to his death. Notably different narrative to the one played out in the press 

[Isegrim 8868]

1 minute ago, Kid Dynamite said:

Interesting context;

-No intention to cause serious harm.

-The kicks alone did not cause serious injury.

-Acknowledgment that it was a very challenging situation and that Atkinson was so unhealthy he could have dropped dead at any minute.

...but ultimately, the decision to keep the taser on for 33 seconds rather than 10 seconds, and to kick him following the taser may have contributed to his death. Notably different narrative to the one played out in the press 

I am involved in about 10-20 murder cases a year. As I said before, press reports are rarely a true reflection of what’s happening at courts.

[thebrokendoll 7085]

1 hour ago, Kid Dynamite said:

Interesting context;

-No intention to cause serious harm.

-The kicks alone did not cause serious injury.

-Acknowledgment that it was a very challenging situation and that Atkinson was so unhealthy he could have dropped dead at any minute.

...but ultimately, the decision to keep the taser on for 33 seconds rather than 10 seconds, and to kick him following the taser may have contributed to his death. Notably different narrative to the one played out in the press 

 

I can't be arsed this evening to tear this post apart. however I will tomorrow. particularly your closing sentence, the hypocrisy is fucking staggering.

I'm really pleased for you though that you have an unerring faith in the british police and the impartiality of our courts. it's kind of sweet really, albeit nauseating.

 

@Isegrim

 

do you have joint enterprise in germany?

[Isegrim 8868]

6 minutes ago, thebrokendoll said:

 

@Isegrim

 

do you have joint enterprise in germany?

Our legal concept is very different. We distinguish between complicity and assistance if two people or more are involved in a crime.

[The Fish 8946]

13 hours ago, Isegrim said:

I am involved in about 10-20 murder cases a year. As I said before, press reports are rarely a true reflection of what’s happening at courts.

Alreet Herr Dexter.

[Kid Dynamite 5881]

19 hours ago, thebrokendoll said:

 

I can't be arsed this evening to tear this post apart. however I will tomorrow. particularly your closing sentence, the hypocrisy is fucking staggering.

I'm really pleased for you though that you have an unerring faith in the british police and the impartiality of our courts. it's kind of sweet really, albeit nauseating.

 

@Isegrim

 

do you have joint enterprise in germany?

I literally paraphrased the judges own words. I've got no interest in being called names by an angry man on the internet with a clearly personal agenda. Perfectly happy to have a reasonable debate about the matter though. 

 

For comparison, here are the judges sentencing remarks for the previous case discussed. Whilst I appreciate the media can't be trusted to give balanced reporting, and that old white judges no doubt have all sorts of unconscious bias, I still struggle to drum up much sympathy  for them tbh
 

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/LONG-BOWERS-COLE-AND-KING-sentencing-remarks-FINAL.pdf

 

It seems you have less of an issue with media bias and more of an issue with the police as a whole. Which is about as sensible as the suggestion that all travellers are criminals. Clearly they aren't, any more than all coppers are violent and corrupt. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Kid Dynamite

[Kitman 2188]

8 hours ago, Kid Dynamite said:

I literally paraphrased the judges own words. I've got no interest in being called names by an angry man on the internet with a clearly personal agenda. Perfectly happy to have a reasonable debate about the matter though. 

 

For comparison, here are the judges sentencing remarks for the previous case discussed. Whilst I appreciate the media can't be trusted to give balanced reporting, and that old white judges no doubt have all sorts of unconscious bias, I still struggle to drum up much sympathy  for them tbh
 

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/LONG-BOWERS-COLE-AND-KING-sentencing-remarks-FINAL.pdf

 

It seems you have less of an issue with media bias and more of an issue with the police as a whole. Which is about as sensible as the suggestion that all travellers are criminals. Clearly they aren't, any more than all coppers are violent and corrupt. 

Isn’t the debate a bit more nuanced that that? I may have this wrong but I thought TBD was saying that police are rarely properly held to account on the occasions they abuse their positions - by their colleagues, the justice system or the press. I think he was trying to contrast that with the example of the travellers (which I freely admit I know nothing about).

 

if that’s right then he’s not saying all police and violent and corrupt, just that bad cops can act with impunity because there are rarely consequences (usually they just retire on a generous pension). I don’t think theres anything wrong with calling that out - a fair and just police force is what’s needed to protect society (which is their role after all) and justice is supposed to be blind.

 

As a footnote personally I don’t think the press should be allowed to identify anybody who’s before the courts until sentence has been passed. Because theyre cunts and dont give a shit about the fairness, impact or consequences of their reportage.

[Kid Dynamite 5881]

4 hours ago, Kitman said:

Isn’t the debate a bit more nuanced that that? I may have this wrong but I thought TBD was saying that police are rarely properly held to account on the occasions they abuse their positions - by their colleagues, the justice system or the press. I think he was trying to contrast that with the example of the travellers (which I freely admit I know nothing about).

 

if that’s right then he’s not saying all police and violent and corrupt, just that bad cops can act with impunity because there are rarely consequences (usually they just retire on a generous pension). I don’t think theres anything wrong with calling that out - a fair and just police force is what’s needed to protect society (which is their role after all) and justice is supposed to be blind.

 

As a footnote personally I don’t think the press should be allowed to identify anybody who’s before the courts until sentence has been passed. Because theyre cunts and dont give a shit about the fairness, impact or consequences of their reportage.

I get all of that and don't disagree. Still struggle to see where the comparison/contrast comes in with 3 career criminals who killed the young copper.

From reading the sentencing remarks for both cases above, it seems it was the copper done for Manslaughter whose case was most misrepresented by the press, not vice versa.

[thebrokendoll 7085]

14 hours ago, Kid Dynamite said:

I literally paraphrased the judges own words. I've got no interest in being called names by an angry man on the internet with a clearly personal agenda. Perfectly happy to have a reasonable debate about the matter though. 

 

For comparison, here are the judges sentencing remarks for the previous case discussed. Whilst I appreciate the media can't be trusted to give balanced reporting, and that old white judges no doubt have all sorts of unconscious bias, I still struggle to drum up much sympathy  for them tbh
 

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/LONG-BOWERS-COLE-AND-KING-sentencing-remarks-FINAL.pdf

 

It seems you have less of an issue with media bias and more of an issue with the police as a whole. Which is about as sensible as the suggestion that all travellers are criminals. Clearly they aren't, any more than all coppers are violent and corrupt. 

 

honestly man, a personal agenda, seriously?

prior to the early part of last week I can remember interacting with you on three occasions (I'm happy to concede my memory's not the best) since I joined this forum. I recall being bemused by your claim the andy carroll was an asset to nufc on account of him winning more headers than any other striker in the league. I recall being slightly more bemused with your happiness to become a free ticket backdrop to ashley's advertising hoarding when an empty stadium would've been more appropriate. neither or indeed a combination of both puts you even close to joining a list of people I have issues with. to balance things out I also remember being very impressed with the gallery of motorbikes you owned.

I didn't come back to you yesterday because I'd decided that your unswerving loyalty to our justice system and those that are tasked with serving it, was precisely that. I would be wasting my time.

I'm at work now, I will get back to you though.

Edited July 1, 2021 by thebrokendoll

[thebrokendoll 7085]

36 minutes ago, Kid Dynamite said:

I get all of that and don't disagree. Still struggle to see where the comparison/contrast comes in with 3 career criminals who killed the young copper.

From reading the sentencing remarks for both cases above, it seems it was the copper done for Manslaughter whose case was most misrepresented by the press, not vice versa.

 

absolute fucking bollocks.

give your fucking head a shake man.

 

edit....

bollocks doesn't do it justice. it's fucking mind numbing.

Edited July 1, 2021 by thebrokendoll

[thebrokendoll 7085]

5 hours ago, Kitman said:

Isn’t the debate a bit more nuanced that that? I may have this wrong but I thought TBD was saying that police are rarely properly held to account on the occasions they abuse their positions - by their colleagues, the justice system or the press. I think he was trying to contrast that with the example of the travellers (which I freely admit I know nothing about).

 

if that’s right then he’s not saying all police and violent and corrupt, just that bad cops can act with impunity because there are rarely consequences (usually they just retire on a generous pension). I don’t think theres anything wrong with calling that out - a fair and just police force is what’s needed to protect society (which is their role after all) and justice is supposed to be blind.

 

As a footnote personally I don’t think the press should be allowed to identify anybody who’s before the courts until sentence has been passed. Because theyre cunts and dont give a shit about the fairness, impact or consequences of their reportage.

 

hat doffed mate.

[Kid Dynamite 5881]

20 minutes ago, thebrokendoll said:

 

honestly man, a personal agenda, seriously?

prior to the early part of last week I can remember interacting with you on three occasions (I'm happy to concede my memory's not the best) since I joined this forum. I recall being bemused by your claim the andy carroll was an asset to nufc on account of him winning more headers than any other striker in the league. I recall being slightly more bemused with your happiness to become a free ticket backdrop to ashley's advertising hoarding when an empty stadium would've been more appropriate. neither or indeed a combination puts you even close to joining a list of people I have issues with. to balance things out I also very impressed with gallery of motorbikes you owned.

I didn't come back yesterday because I'd decided that your unswerving loyalty to our justice system and those that are tasked with serving it, was precisely that. I would be wasting my time.

I'm at work now, I will get back to you though.

To clarify, I meant a personal agenda with the police/the courts, not myself. And I'm happy to admit I was spectacularly wrong about Andy Carroll. 
 

I don't have unswerving faith in our courts but do feel that it's one of the better systems in the world. It's not the judges that decide these cases iirc, it's a jury of 12 members of the public that get to listen to a defence and prosecution argument and see the evidence before they make their decision.
 

Happy to be educated on the flaws in the current system. It seems to me that the burden of proof on the CPS is huge to prosecute a case. Just look at how many rape allegations end up with a prosecution. 1-2% iirc? 

[thebrokendoll 7085]

10 hours ago, Kid Dynamite said:

To clarify, I meant a personal agenda with the police/the courts, not myself. And I'm happy to admit I was spectacularly wrong about Andy Carroll. 
 

I don't have unswerving faith in our courts but do feel that it's one of the better systems in the world. It's not the judges that decide these cases iirc, it's a jury of 12 members of the public that get to listen to a defence and prosecution argument and see the evidence before they make their decision.
 

Happy to be educated on the flaws in the current system. It seems to me that the burden of proof on the CPS is huge to prosecute a case. Just look at how many rape allegations end up with a prosecution. 1-2% iirc? 

 

you do a lot of clarifying! 

I think it's probably best to give the rest of the forum and especially the general football thread a bit of a break!

I have nowt against you whatsoever and wish you nothing other than good fortune.

take it easy man.