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Generic small time football blather thread FOREVER


Sonatine
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Look at the individuals in this team…am not sure any of the current players are better than any of these, maybe Kane?  People bang on about how lucky Southgate has been…has he really when you compare player for player? Obviously tactics and bizarre loyalty to players are and have been huge issues. But at the end of the day his squads are nowhere near the likes of these…

 

 

2F5C4911-F786-46A4-A8DE-870B8B49C86A.jpeg

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The problem with that squad IMO was that they were individually great players who didn't gel together well enough. 

I give Southgate credit for drafting in the likes of Sancho, Bellingham, Saka, Mount, etc. before they became household names. The majority of these are positives. 

 

The main issue I find is he's consistently fielding players who are not being selected for their club sides. It's utter madness! It doesn't matter how good a player is, lack of match fitness is always going to put us at a disadvantage.

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Generally couldn’t give a fuck about England games but, his main problem is he doesn’t trust any of his central defenders to play in a 4 at the back.
 

So he plays a 3/5 and it makes them look pedestrian/not enough players further forward to get into the box on attack. 

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He’s frustratingly negative given the talent at his disposal. And his loyalty to players out of form or not being picked is frustrating, but he’s got enough credit in the bank but to be given a final crack at a tournament. I don’t get those calling for him to be sacked because it isn’t going to happen. England turned up and performed in 1990 despite coming into it out of form. 

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13 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

He’s frustratingly negative given the talent at his disposal. And his loyalty to players out of form or not being picked is frustrating, but he’s got enough credit in the bank but to be given a final crack at a tournament. I don’t get those calling for him to be sacked because it isn’t going to happen. England turned up and performed in 1990 despite coming into it out of form. 


I think “the talent at his disposal” is the problem, that’s why I posted the picture . There’s not a defender as good as Ferdinand, Terry or Campbell, or a midfielder as good as Lampard, Scholes or Gerrard. Forget this team’s various failures, that was  down to the managers, both international and domestic if Liverpool and Man Utd players are to be believed. The current squad’s relative success may well be largely down to Southgate rather than in spite of him…. largely agree with the general comments about his faults, but look at the talent available 20 years ago, it’s unreal, and they didn’t get beyond a 1/4 final 

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31 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:


I think “the talent at his disposal” is the problem, that’s why I posted the picture . There’s not a defender as good as Ferdinand, Terry or Campbell, or a midfielder as good as Lampard, Scholes or Gerrard. Forget this team’s various failures, that was  down to the managers, both international and domestic if Liverpool and Man Utd players are to be believed. The current squad’s relative success may well be largely down to Southgate rather than in spite of him…. largely agree with the general comments about his faults, but look at the talent available 20 years ago, it’s unreal, and they didn’t get beyond a 1/4 final 


The central defence isn’t as good but it’s just as strong in other areas. The big issue, like you say, is the “golden generation” were a team of individuals and rarely looked like a cohesive unit 

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my take, is that the coach has fitted a few square pegs in round holes for a while. playing full backs at wing back. playing out of form players, and hoping they would snap back into form. 2 holding midfielders with rice being a 4 and 6.... safety first. no quality back up in a number of positions. relying on an inconsistent Kane, and having sterling playing despite his relative form. 

 

must be tough as certain players perform best in certain systems and it was clear that the couple of days coaching southgate and the team imparted hadn't really sunk in. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:

Shoehorning Gerrard, Lampard and Scholes never worked for successive managers in the 4-4-2 era. Three great players but that midfield was always imbalanced.  

the one player that could play deep, couldn't tackle and was played on the left. winning. 

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44 minutes ago, tinofbeans said:

my take, is that the coach has fitted a few square pegs in round holes for a while. playing full backs at wing back. playing out of form players, and hoping they would snap back into form. 2 holding midfielders with rice being a 4 and 6.... safety first. no quality back up in a number of positions. relying on an inconsistent Kane, and having sterling playing despite his relative form. 

 

must be tough as certain players perform best in certain systems and it was clear that the couple of days coaching southgate and the team imparted hadn't really sunk in. 

 

 


For all that, he’s got to a semi and a final, which other more gifted squads failed to. Which is precisely my point. 

 

1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:


The central defence isn’t as good but it’s just as strong in other areas. The big issue, like you say, is the “golden generation” were a team of individuals and rarely looked like a cohesive unit 


I think the alleged “golden generation” lacked quality wide players but I don’t think those on offer to Southgate bare much comparison. The midfield is nowhere near as good, no one anywhere near Beckham’s passing and crossing , no one even close to Rooney. Rice is plainly a good player but comparing him to Scholes, Gerrard or Lampard us frankly bollocks .In terms of pure talent it’s not even an argument. Southgate has achieved more…but is getting annihilated…I don’t get it…

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Just now, PaddockLad said:


For all that, he’s got to a semi and a final, which other more gifted squads failed to. Which is precisely my point. 

 


Mostly disagree. I think the alleged “golden generation” lacked quality wide players but I don’t think those on offer to Southgate bare much comparison. The midfield is nowhere near as good, no one anywhere near Beckham’s passing and crossing , no one even close to Rooney. Rice is plainly a good player but comparing him to Scholes, Gerrard or Lampard us frankly bollocks .In terms of pure talent it’s not even an argument. But Southgate has achieved more…

 

a good team isn't just a collection of your most talented players though, which is why that england team consistently flopped - despite the talent to pick from.

 

that team was crying out for a declan rice to sit in CM, or someone like foden, saka, sancho or graelish to play out wide. no combination of lampard, gerrard and lampard ever really worked in CM - and all three players were wasted playing LM

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2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

so man for man, were the that much better? debatable. but as a team they were much worse 


Yeah that’s pretty much what I’m saying.l, although I think there’s less of a debate on the quality between the two. Southgate’s got a bunch of good players playing in a system that has worked to a large extent… it’s failed at the very top level but they always  look motivated and they look like they give a shit. Yet they and the manager are being annihilated as much as Erickson, Cappello and McLaren were. I don’t get it. Well I do, it’s typical English arrogance and exceptionalism. But that’s my Scottish side saying that :D

 

 

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35 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:


For all that, he’s got to a semi and a final, which other more gifted squads failed to. Which is precisely my point. 

 


I think the alleged “golden generation” lacked quality wide players but I don’t think those on offer to Southgate bare much comparison. The midfield is nowhere near as good, no one anywhere near Beckham’s passing and crossing , no one even close to Rooney. Rice is plainly a good player but comparing him to Scholes, Gerrard or Lampard us frankly bollocks .In terms of pure talent it’s not even an argument. Southgate has achieved more…but is getting annihilated…I don’t get it…

 

if you put rice in the holding role, and sacrificed one of Gerrard or Lampard, you'd have a much more balanced team, but thats absolutely impossible ( nicky butt would have been the guy instead). i don't think southgate should be hammered at all. i just wish he would pick players that are in form and can step up. 

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1 minute ago, tinofbeans said:

 

if you put rice in the holding role, and sacrificed one of Gerrard or Lampard, you'd have a much more balanced team, but thats absolutely impossible ( nicky butt would have been the guy instead). i don't think southgate should be hammered at all. i just wish he would pick players that are in form and can step up. 


Yeah I’d agree with that, but Sven never had the balls to pick,of all people, Scott Parker :lol: unless you can think of someone else from back then?…  Erickson was a fuckin fan boy, same with McLaren. Don’t think the players were having Cappello, and it showed in South Africa…

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I don't really watch the England games in between the tournaments any more but Southgate has finished with e semi-final and final in his last 2 majors.  Bar Ramsey he must the most successful manager ever?

 

Having said that Maguire is casting a huge head shaped shadow over him. He needs to drop him pretty sharpish.

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2 hours ago, Holden McGroin said:

I don't really watch the England games in between the tournaments any more but Southgate has finished with e semi-final and final in his last 2 majors.  Bar Ramsey he must the most successful manager ever?

 

Having said that Maguire is casting a huge head shaped shadow over him. He needs to drop him pretty sharpish.


He’s two games, a penalty shoot-out and two dodgy Argentinian goals, better than Bobby Robson. I’m not understating what Southgate has achieved, but I know which of the two I think was the better manager. 

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Robson was vilified by press and public with a far superior squad. That squad in Italia 90 was incredible.

 

Im not saying Southgate is a better manager by the way. Im just looking at his record in major tournaments - which is what its all about really?

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The Italia 90 squad had some great individuals, including Gazza at what turned out to be his peak, but it was not an incredible squad by any stretch of the imagination. 

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57 minutes ago, Alex said:

The Italia 90 squad had some great individuals, including Gazza at what turned out to be his peak, but it was not an incredible squad by any stretch of the imagination. 

 

In terms of attacking players (Waddle, Beardo, Lineker, Gazza, Barnes etc) they were great names. Of course when you look back on these things X might not have been in form and Y might not have have reached their potential yet

 

 Can't believe Stuart Pearce was 28 in Italia 98. Played for us about 10 years after that.

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I wouldn’t dispute any of those were really good players. You could argue about whether or not done of them were great in the sense of their international achievements. Either way it’s quite a fucking leap to argue the squad was incredible. You had the likes of Paul Parker, Mark Wright and David Platt in the starting XI in the semi. Platt had a good career (as did Parker) but he was essentially a box to box grafter with an eye for goal. Shilton and Butcher started that match too. They were both finished at that level imo, especially the latter. What did we have on the bench? Barnes, but he never really did it for England. There wasn’t a lot else. Bryan Robson was fucking brilliant and underrated now but he was knackered again 

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3 hours ago, Alex said:

The Italia 90 squad had some great individuals, including Gazza at what turned out to be his peak, but it was not an incredible squad by any stretch of the imagination. 

indeed.  Paul Parker. Peter Stilton ( about 6 years past his best). the rest were all pretty damn good though.. 

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