Andrew 4218 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Just now, Rayvin said: The problem with that view is that you're basically saying 3rd wave feminism isn't actually working in the interests of women by pushing on this. Which I would have to then ask you, what you think it's working towards? You think they're just misguided? I mean this isn't random people on Twitter, this is the Guardian. So? The Guardian (which I should stress I quite like) publishes all manner of horseshit, have you ever looked at the "experience" section? I've nothing to add on 3rd wave feminism because I'm not read up enough to do so (though a quick check suggests we're at wave 4 now? I dunno) I think #meToo is important as it deals with harassment, but in being a social media campaign it allows for too much muddying of the water it starts to not be about harassment but about cases that are debatable, the Aziz Ansari case should never have been associated with #meToo, that woman wasn't harassed, she had a shitty experience for which she was partly to blame. "Grace" was apparently furious that she saw Ansari wearing a "times up" pin when he won his golden globe. I think a great deal of feminism doesn't work in the interests of "women", I think it generalises far too readily and lacks the focus to deal with specific issues as a result. #meToo is in danger of becoming the gamerGate of feminism, its about ethics in game journalism. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Nice post. Especially the final comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howmanheyman 26793 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, Rayvin said: The problem with that view is that you're basically saying 3rd wave feminism isn't actually working in the interests of women by pushing on this. Which I would have to then ask you, what you think it's working towards? You think they're just misguided? I mean this isn't random people on Twitter, this is the Guardian. '3rd wave' feminism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 They've split different periods of feminism into 'waves' in order to allow for a moving of goalposts as objectives are achieved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30390 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, Howmanheyman said: '3rd wave' feminism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 14038 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 "Third-wave" is pretty much "within our adult living memory" though, isn't it? It's not like they're saying "no no, things have changed since November 2017, gotcha!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Meenzer said: "Third-wave" is pretty much "within our adult living memory" though, isn't it? It's not like they're saying "no no, things have changed since November 2017, gotcha!" I wasn't criticising it so much as pointing out how the mechanism works. And apparently we're onto 4th wave now anyway, so maybe things have changed since November 2017... EDIT - I stand corrected, the contention is that 4th wave kicked off in 2012 with the rise of social media. Edited January 17, 2018 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34427 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 What forums are you getting all this shit from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strawb 3659 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Those realistic sex robots best hurry up 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Gemmill said: What forums are you getting all this shit from? If that's directed at me, I get this mostly from the Guardian, but tbh I used to do wider reading on it while I was trying to understand what the current prevailing social narratives are. I know you all hate me, don't worry. Edited January 17, 2018 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Kelly 1117 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 29 minutes ago, strawb said: Those realistic sex robots best hurry up You just need to know where to find them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew 4218 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 3 hours ago, Rayvin said: "#MeToo isn't enough, now women need to get ugly" https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/16/metoo-women-daughters-harassment-powerful-men oof, I thought Id pop back to that now that the comments have had some time to develop. A lot of (surprisingly) well reasoned and written responses calling the article out as crap, oddly none of those ones got the "guardian pick" and a distasteful number of people going all out abusive to anyone who hasn't fully agreed. Have a look at LunaD21s comment and the replies to that from the *ahem* feminists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 To be fair, LunaD12 is literally knifing the sisterhood in the back by claiming that she has never experienced any such things. Women being a collective, rather than individuals, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30390 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Not literally The thing is, a lot of people couldn't give a fuck about the stuff she's moaning about because they have lives immeasurably shittier than hers and she doesn't give a fuck about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 I was being facetious with the entire sisterhood comment tbf... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30390 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Going off your previous posts, I literally can't tell the difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Fair, but I've been playing devil's advocate for the feminists for the purpose of advancing the discussion a bit. I'm a barely veiled misogynist/nazi remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30390 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 I was being facetious 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30390 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Joking apart though, I'd be interested in your thoughts re: her probably not being able to see too far beyond her bubble. I.e. without wider social justice, will any of this ever change? Complaining about feeling she couldn't go out without being harrassed when she was spending a term abroad (whilst being a perfectly legitimate complaint) isn't exactly going to resonate with people who can't afford to go to university, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Yeah you're right about the privilege element. As far as I can tell, feminism's view on such matters is strikingly similar to the notion of 'trickle down' economics. That the gains made by the super privileged women benefit the poor ones. As such, I've heard feminists state that women at the bottom of the pay ladder on minimum wage don't need help in this respect because they're already 'equal' with men in the same position. A lot of it has become middle class and 'trendy' in my view. I do actually see her point about the problems she would have faced in other countries which have done less for women's rights, but IMO that should only emphasise how well Western society has done in this regard. I don't think the current social justice vehicle is a particularly good solution to these problems because it's primarily motivated by self interest, but if we are going to achieve meaningful change, I would argue that encouraging children to focus on people as individuals rather than as members of certain groups, would be the way to achieve this. i.e., they are a person first, a woman second. I don't think the current movement deals with this, as it sees power in terms of being able to group people and assign a set of 'values' to that group, with pressure to adopt them. I think we'll come up with something better in the end. Egalitarianism maybe, although I've heard that described as an "MRA plot to destroy feminism" so who knows if it'll ever take hold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30390 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Yeah you're right about the privilege element. As far as I can tell, feminism's view on such matters is strikingly similar to the notion of 'trickle down' economics. That the gains made by the super privileged women benefit the poor ones. As such, I've heard feminists state that women at the bottom of the pay ladder on minimum wage don't need help in this respect because they're already 'equal' with men in the same position. That's bollocks as I think we both know. A lot of it has become middle class and 'trendy' in my view. I do actually see her point about the problems she would have faced in other countries which have done less for women's rights, but IMO that should only emphasise how well Western society has done in this regard. Agreed. I don't think the current social justice vehicle is a particularly good solution to these problems because it's primarily motivated by self interest, but if we are going to achieve meaningful change, I would argue that encouraging children to focus on people as individuals rather than as members of certain groups, would be the way to achieve this. i.e., they are a person first, a woman second. I don't think the current movement deals with this, as it sees power in terms of being able to group people and assign a set of 'values' to that group, with pressure to adopt them. Agree again, 'social justice' was probably the wrong phrase, due to its loaded connotations. More equality across the board, especially economic, is more what I was driving at. I think we'll come up with something better in the end. Egalitarianism maybe, although I've heard that described as an "MRA plot to destroy feminism" so who knows if it'll ever take hold. It's about time we grew up as a species, that's for sure. Although so many people being absolute cunts makes that a difficult issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 I mean yeah, equality of opportunity in an economic sense is probably the best we can hope for in addressing injustice in wider society IMO. I feel like some of the other aspects of of current focus just distract people for the main goal. So yeah, agreed. On the last point too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 13840 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Most of the "feminism" I experience is just women winding men up on twitter. Nothing much in "real life". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howmanheyman 26793 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 7 hours ago, Gemmill said: What forums are you getting all this shit from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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