howe's team with a couple of players who should never play for us again v rodger's team with a couple of players we should nick

[OTF 5395]

10 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

I wonder if the young Aussie can be an option "off the bench", if he shows any evidence of being clinical in training, they may rethink his loan plan.

, Because we need all the help we can get in that department. 

 

I would not count on it, he's very 'raw'.

[Gemmill 29677]

Would be counter to his development too. He needs to be playing lots, not sitting on a bench. 

[Dr Gloom 17664]

5 hours ago, Howay said:

They’re both finished tbf, and aye I’m aware Murphy is 27. 
 

Hopefully we see a response in this one, at least we will likely see a lot less of the real scrubs left from the Ashley era - had my fucking fill for the season seeing some of them. I know some fans have a new found liking for a lot of them but I personally don’t have time for a lot of them, I aim a ton of blame at a Bruce but a lot of those players deserve a sizable portion too which is why I can’t wait to see the back of them. Seeing Manquillos name on the team sheet always fills me with dread for example. Again totally understand this will take time but I really look forward to the day they’re all gone (Jonjo Shelvey included, I’ll be fucking buzzing when he finally isn’t darkening the door of SJP).

i agree that these players will need to be replaced in line with the club’s new ambitions but tbf to Howe he had to rotate in this game. Murphy and Manquillo have both done well for him in the past. We can’t get rid of all of them overnight but they will all go eventually.
 

our first team is class but I hope last night forces the owners to act in the transfer market as the lack of squad depth was exposed. We haven’t got the quality in reserve to make that many changes (yet) - even against a league one side.

 

credit to Wednesday though. They were brilliant 

 

 

[ewerk 23691]

One thing is certainly clear, we don’t have a squad capable of competing in both the league and European competition. There’s a big summer coming up for us.

[Dr Gloom 17664]

That wood miss btw 

[Gemmill 29677]

I felt bad for him when the camera focused on him about a minute after the chance. He looked tortured. Still no excuse for a striker in any of the four divisions not to hit the target there, but he looked like his head had gone. 

[Alex 26653]

I thought Anderson’s miss was the worst  of the lot tbh. It was the easiest chance of the evening 

[Toonpack 5949]

3 minutes ago, Alex said:

I thought Anderson’s miss was the worst  of the lot tbh. It was the easiest chance of the evening 

 

☝️

[thebrokendoll 6512]

9 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

That wood miss btw 

 

for the masochists amongst us....

 

 

 

[Howay 11665]

3 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

i agree that these players will need to be replaced in line with the club’s new ambitions but tbf to Howe he had to rotate in this game. Murphy and Manquillo have both done well for him in the past. We can’t get rid of all of them overnight but they will all go eventually.
 

our first team is class but I hope last night forces the owners to act in the transfer market as the lack of squad depth was exposed. We haven’t got the quality in reserve to make that many changes (yet) - even against a league one side.

 

credit to Wednesday though. They were brilliant 

 

 

I’m not complaining about Howe rotating at all, we have loads of games in a condensed period so it was necessary. 
 

Disagree completely on Manquillo btw, not a slight on Howe as he has no one else to play but Manquillo is abysmal and has pretty regularly cost us a goal every time he has played under Howe. 
 

I totally get that it won’t happen overnight, my post was just me saying I look forward to the day I don’t have to watch players like Manquillo, Murphy, etc, not that I expect it all to have changed by now. 
 

My overarching point is I still blame a lot of these players for the failings and absolutely fucking dog shit we sat through under Ashley. I don’t blame all of them, and some are redeeming themselves to various degrees but I still hold resentment towards some as I’m not willing to just chalk it up to Bruce and act like they’re all brilliant loyal servants. 

Edited January 8 by Howay

[Howay 11665]

8 hours ago, Chaser said:

Even Maxi rates stroller Shelvey so they obviously see the qualities he brings. That said, not sure if the club want this new contract or he has just been unlucky with injury. 

 

I still don't see why Fraser doesn't come into it. He's supposedly fit again and will run himself into the ground when asked. He's got more composure than Murphy and more legs than Richie. 

ASM is another player I personally look forward to being gone from the club. I know it’s probably controversial as many love him but he’s never going to click under Howe iyam. He’s a player that suits being the big fish in a small pond, being the focus of the attack and not being overly burdened with having a strict role or defensive responsibility. 
 

As for Shelvey I’ve watched the lazy bastard for 8 years, the only thing he brings to the team is he can play that DM role and free Bruno up. Once we sign someone for that role it’s time he went, the amount of times he cost us over the years with giving up on covering runners, wayward absurd passes, and general stupidity lashing out at opponents means it’s time to go. I know for whatever reason after a handful of decent games under Howe there’s some that want to keep him but personally I can’t stand the player. 

[wykikitoon 14223]

I'm with you re ASM Howay. Not a surprise like  Stats people always have him high but that's previous regimes when we were shite.  

[Chaser 907]

3 hours ago, Gemmill said:

I felt bad for him when the camera focused on him about a minute after the chance. He looked tortured. Still no excuse for a striker in any of the four divisions not to hit the target there, but he looked like his head had gone. 

I do wonder whether he has a complex about it, a touch of imposter syndrome. He always looks tortured to me, maybe he carries the weight of the fee. 

[wykikitoon 14223]

When he missed that my Leeds supporting shit bag mates Whatsapp me with 'I see Christine is back to her best;  

[Dr Gloom 17664]

I 

48 minutes ago, Howay said:

I’m not complaining about Howe rotating at all, we have loads of games in a condensed period so it was necessary. 
 

Disagree completely on Manquillo btw, not a slight on Howe as he has no one else to play but Manquillo is abysmal and has pretty regularly cost us a goal every time he has played under Howe. 
 

I totally get that it won’t happen overnight, my post was just me saying I look forward to the day I don’t have to watch players like Manquillo, Murphy, etc, not that I expect it all to have changed by now. 
 

My overarching point is I still blame a lot of these players for the failings and absolutely fucking dog shit we sat through under Ashley. I don’t blame all of them, and some are redeeming themselves to various degrees but I still hold resentment towards some as I’m not willing to just chalk it up to Bruce and act like they’re all brilliant loyal servants. 

 

yeah, I’m going to disagree on Manquillo. He’s obviously a limited player and I won’t be overly gutted when he is upgraded but he did well for Howe over a run of games last season before Krafth stepped up.

 

Shelvey did well last season too and while long term he isn’t the answer i do feel for him that injuries stopped his chances of proving whether he can play in Howe’s new system this season. He looked like he got in the shape of his life - not that that excuses him playing the game at his own pace for the previous years he was at be he club. 
 

I’m starting to think ASM might be finished here too. It will always be a case of what might have been with him. He’s the most talented dribbler at the club and there were some signs the penny might have dropped with his decision making. If he played like he did against Man City earlier this season every week, we wouldn’t be having this conversation but his season has been wrecked by injuries too and it doesn’t look like Howe trusts him to do the work required off the ball in the big games now he is fit.  

[Howay 11665]

1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:

I 

 

yeah, I’m going to disagree on Manquillo. He’s obviously a limited player and I won’t be overly gutted when he is upgraded but he did well for Howe over a run of games last season before Krafth stepped up.

 

Shelvey did well last season too and while long term he isn’t the answer i do feel for him that injuries stopped his chances of proving whether he can play in Howe’s new system this season. He looked like he got in the shape of his life - not that that excuses him playing the game at his own pace for the previous years he was at be he club. 
 

I’m starting to think ASM might be finished here too. It will always be a case of what might have been with him. He’s the most talented dribbler at the club and there were some signs the penny might have dropped with his decision making. If he played like he did against Man City earlier this season every week, we wouldn’t be having this conversation but his season has been wrecked by injuries too and it doesn’t look like Howe trusts him to do the work required off the ball in the big games now he is fit.  

Fair one, I saw absolutely nothing from Manquillo and never have, Krafth was a massive upgrade and he himself is a limited player. He’s one of the ones to show zero improvement under Howe imo, cost us plenty of goals under Howe even if he’s just on the pitch for 10 minutes, as well as ruining good chances (see yesterday where all he had to do was lift his head and the easy pass was on but he just head down crossed it to the only defender left) but agree to disagree. 
 

In terms of Shelvey I personally didn’t see the number of good performances under Howe that others did, I think he did fine in some games and did what he was asked similarly to Longstaff does now but I’ve no praise for him. You’re more forgiving of him which is fair enough, I have no time for the bloke the way he acted, performed, and his general attitude while under Ashley were unforgivable for me - I don’t feel sorry for him in terms of missing a chance as he doesn’t deserve it imo and regardless he wouldn’t ever reach the level required medium to long term, he blew that chance for himself a long time ago when he didn’t bother his arse at Liverpool. 
 

Totally understand I’m probably one of the harsher ones on here but someone like Shelvey has been paid £80k a week for his tenure at us and he’s been by and large a disgrace. I worried to a degree that his injury would cost us but we’ve shown we don’t need him at all presently, Longstaff has come into his role and there’s been no drop off in performance so hopefully we can get an upgrade at DM in either this window or summer and he can go to Brentford or wherever. 
 

Agree on ASM, his time is done I’m really skeptical of the illness and injury claims I think as you say Howe just doesn’t trust him to execute. Extremely talented football player but maybe just isn’t suited to the system/role required, is what it is really and I’ve got faith in Howe so trust his decision. 
 

Not a reaction to you btw and I don’t see it on this forum but I’m just a bit tired of a lot of our fan base (twitter mainly) acting like these players who have failed us should be showered with praise, thanked, fawned over, and rewarded with contracts/squad places. Any criticism of said players is met with bemusement claims of delusion/ungratefulness, it’s just a weird trend emerging - and too much is forgiven because of Bruce etc but there were plenty of players who came in and didn’t let their effort or professionalism drop under Ashley’s tenure (for example Joelinton and Almiron always worked hard, stayed in shape but were clearly let down by Bruce), we just got stuck with a lot that did and now there’s a lot of “loyal servant” type praise for people like Clark who sat on £38k a week to give zero effort whatsoever - I don’t blame them for taking the pay cheque but similarly I won’t thank them for ‘helping us stay up’. Again not aimed at you, just a general rant as I’m in a crap mood and this has been building .

Edited January 8 by Howay

[Rosco 727]

3 hours ago, Chaser said:

I do wonder whether he has a complex about it, a touch of imposter syndrome. He always looks tortured to me, maybe he carries the weight of the fee. 

How many chances like that has he missed so far he just looks so slow and a second off the pace, I still dont understand why we signed him there must have been another big carthorse available to replace Wilson when he was injured (I dont beleive the it weakened Burnley story). A lucky goal at Southanpton penalty at Leicester and thats his lot and lets face it he did fuck all last season.......the guy is absolute shite and not suited to our style of play

Edited January 8 by Rosco

[wykikitoon 14223]

Apparently ASM posted on social media how he's better.  If he isn't in the squad Tuesday I can see him gone.

[Rosco 727]

Pope 

Trippier

Schar

Botman

Burn

Bruno

Willock

Joelinton

Almiron

 

Then any 2 from 3

 

Wilson

Isak

Asm

 

[Tom 12685]

I will not be participating in dry January during this event. 
 

Might get to the Trent at about 11am.

[aimaad22 2550]

10 hours ago, ewerk said:

One thing is certainly clear, we don’t have a squad capable of competing in both the league and European competition. There’s a big summer coming up for us.

 

With FFP restrictions that apparently apply only to us, how much will we be able or allowed to do even if the club is ready to spend big? 

 

We could finish 4th this year and then 10th the next with European fixtures unless the squad is revamped. 

 

Or is the club just sprouting FFP nonsense to drive prices down. I don't know what to exactly make of it at this point.

[ewerk 23691]

1 hour ago, aimaad22 said:

 

With FFP restrictions that apparently apply only to us, how much will we be able or allowed to do even if the club is ready to spend big? 

 

We could finish 4th this year and then 10th the next with European fixtures unless the squad is revamped. 

 

Or is the club just sprouting FFP nonsense to drive prices down. I don't know what to exactly make of it at this point.

Aren’t you an accountant? You’re Asian so I’m going to assume that you are, or failing that, IT.

 

Right now we’re close to FFP regulations by spending at existing levels but that’s because our income is so low. Our finishing position this year makes a huge difference to what we can spend. Not because of the prize money but because of the massive dodgy commercial deals we can try to  justify because of our involvement in European competition.

 

Finishing fourth allows us to earn CL level sponsorship money. But we can do that on five year deals meaning that money is guaranteed to us regardless of league position and no one can say anything about it.

 

It’s huge. It would take us three or four years ahead of schedule but failure would only put us back on schedule rather than delay the plan.

Edited January 8 by ewerk

[aimaad22 2550]

8 hours ago, ewerk said:

Aren’t you an accountant? You’re Asian so I’m going to assume that you are, or failing that, IT.

 

Right now we’re close to FFP regulations by spending at existing levels but that’s because our income is so low. Our finishing position this year makes a huge difference to what we can spend. Not because of the prize money but because of the massive dodgy commercial deals we can try to  justify because of our involvement in European competition.

 

Finishing fourth allows us to earn CL level sponsorship money. But we can do that on five year deals meaning that money is guaranteed to us regardless of league position and no one can say anything about it.

 

It’s huge. It would take us three or four years ahead of schedule but failure would only put us back on schedule rather than delay the plan.

 

Reported. 

 

Well I do work in finance so you're not far off

 

I know we've talked about it here in the past and some people on Twitter have done detailed analysis on FFP implications after the takeover. 

 

What's a bit shady to me is the seemingly arbritrary nature of income. Some clubs seem to be more comfortable stretching the rules than others and there hasn't been much evidence of action from UEFA yet. Everton were under investigation weren't they? Perhaps I haven't followed or it takes time but that seems to have gone off radar a bit. 

 

We seem to be playing by the book. Perhaps until our sponsorship deals kick in. Do we really need CL qualification to justify them though? I get that would make it easier to prove fair market value compared to if we finished lower but not to say the club still couldn't get substantial deals if we finished 5th or 6th. Our deals will be scrutinized in either case because of PIF. 

 

What a load of tosh FFP is btw. Just serving to protect the status quo in its current state

 

 

 

[OTF 5395]

6 minutes ago, aimaad22 said:

What a load of tosh FFP is btw. Just serving to protect the status quo in its current state

 

It is absolute crap, agreed. However what we're engaged in could be a more rewarding gradual ascension. None of that spunking huge amounts of cash on money grabbing mercenaries, and all the while we'll be witnessing the existing big spenders bitching and moaning about us coming for them (refer to Jurgen Klippityklopp). 

[ewerk 23691]

54 minutes ago, aimaad22 said:

 

Reported. 

 

Well I do work in finance so you're not far off

 

I know we've talked about it here in the past and some people on Twitter have done detailed analysis on FFP implications after the takeover. 

 

What's a bit shady to me is the seemingly arbritrary nature of income. Some clubs seem to be more comfortable stretching the rules than others and there hasn't been much evidence of action from UEFA yet. Everton were under investigation weren't they? Perhaps I haven't followed or it takes time but that seems to have gone off radar a bit. 

 

We seem to be playing by the book. Perhaps until our sponsorship deals kick in. Do we really need CL qualification to justify them though? I get that would make it easier to prove fair market value compared to if we finished lower but not to say the club still couldn't get substantial deals if we finished 5th or 6th. Our deals will be scrutinized in either case because of PIF. 

 

What a load of tosh FFP is btw. Just serving to protect the status quo in its current state

 

 

 

 

UEFA have tried to punish Man City and PSG in the past and I think both attempts failed on appeal. Spain has a different (stricter) system to us but we've seen both Real Madrid shitting themselves at not being able to meet the rules. Everton have spent very little over the last couple of years because they bet the house on a number of players who did absolutely nothing for them. But I can't think of anyone actually receiving any significant punishment for FFP breaches.

 

What we have to contend with though is the new 'Newcastle rule' that the other PL clubs have brought in whereby the PL can veto any related party sponsorship deals that they feel aren't at a fair market value. We've yet to see what this will look like in operation but my guess is that it's going to end up in the courts at some point.