Muslims

[NJS 3977]

I mean when was the last time you can ever remember any catholics, protestants, jews, buddhists, mormons, quakers, jedis...etc. etc. going around burning, torching and destroying things and demanding the death of people who have insulted them, not very likely is it?

 

To be fair and equal in my contempt the Hindus and Sikhs in India don't exactly have a perfect record in this respect.

[NJS 3977]

you have a holy book which specifically encourages believers to kill infidels

 

What the......where did you get that from?? Its says nothing of the sort. Only in self-defence.

 

The sad fact is that despite their noble ideals Islam and Christianity at a big picture level have brought nothing to the human race but misery and death.

 

Thats what most people dont get. Its not Islam or Christianity that have bought the world to war, its exactly the opposite. Its people either forgetting, or completely altering the teachings of Islam and Christianity that has led to this stage. How many people on this thread have said 'I dont give a crap about religion'? Thats happening all over the world, people forgetting true religion or altering it to suit whatever they feel like at the time. Its not just happening to religion, while muslims and christians are forgetting what their religion tells them, ethics morals etc are disappearing gradually on the world level, no doubt about it.

 

 

Out of context no doubt

 

On your second point its the usual "atheists have no morals" bollocks. As part of my interest in evolution/creationism debates I found out that there were MORE murders in the US before Darwin produced his "satanic" book - this was used to counter the argument that the "downfall" of religion had led to ethical decline.

 

Tell me who has better morals - someone like me who is "good" because I believe in the good of humanity as a whole or someone who is "good" because he desires a reward of paradise or avoidance of hell?

Edited September 18, 2006 by NJS

[Papa Lazaru 0]

I mean when was the last time you can ever remember any catholics, protestants, jews, buddhists, mormons, quakers, jedis...etc. etc. going around burning, torching and destroying things and demanding the death of people who have insulted them, not very likely is it?

 

To be fair and equal in my contempt the Hindus and Sikhs in India don't exactly have a perfect record in this respect.

 

True, there was also those Sikh protests stopping that play at a theatre a while back which were pretty bad. But in a world sense you hear from them alot less and don't see such regular explosions of protest/hate/anger etc.

[aimaad22 3453]

I don't give a shit what it "means" - people are defined by their actions.

 

Muslims worldwide hold to the "identity" of Islam - they speak of a brotherhood which sounds very noble until it becomes apparent that too many of them are fuckwits - then it becomes "but they are't real muslims" or other such bollocks. When the sectarian violence in Iraq really kicked off I read posts on the BBC from Muslims claiming it had to be the CIA/Mossad as "true" muslims wouldn't bomb mosques - get real.

 

Stop hiding behind "its just a few" and address the real issues - you have a holy book which specifically encourages believers to kill infidels (200 "though shalt not kills" do not negate a promise of paradise) - the bible has the same but they're arent anywhere near as many idiots who actually take it at its word.

 

The sad fact is that despite their noble ideals Islam and Christianity at a big picture level have brought nothing to the human race but misery and death.

 

A good post. Anyone who thinks all muslims are like the lunatics we hear from all the time is wrong, but that doesn't hide certain facts. And one of those is that as a religion it has far more angry, volatile, over the top and at times extremely violent reactions to any random slight they percieve.

 

To challenge the view your religion is evil and hate filled by bombing churches, attacking a nun and holding mass protests round the world wanting the pope dead etc. because he mentioned some quote from years ago is just frightening! And that following on from attacks on all things Danish when they published some cartoons in a newspaper, and there are other examples which always result in mass angry protests.

 

I hate all orgaised religions to be honest, but if somebody had come out and said the same comments about christianity you would probably have had a few priests on tv have a whinge and a few people getting mildly annoyed and probably not much else, particularly as the quote was from the bloody middle ages or soemthign like that!

 

People who think all muslims are like that and think they are actually evil etc. would be morons, but anyone who doesn't think as a religion it has far more dangerous and over the top reactions than other religions and leads to more trouble these days are being naive.

 

I mean when was the last time you can ever remember any catholics, protestants, jews, buddhists, mormons, quakers, jedis...etc. etc. going around burning, torching and destroying things and demanding the death of people who have insulted them, not very likely is it? And i don't like those religions either (except the Buddhists and Jedis of course!) but you don't see this same problem en masse with them.

 

And as somebody mentioned earlier in the thread i found it amusing that the pope apologised since he's infalible and represents the will/word of god. He should be sacked tbh!

 

 

Most christian these days openly say they dont give a damn about God. So I wouldnt expect much trouble from them if someone was to openly abuse the faith tomorrow. The religion is just about dead....

 

But you are right about certain muslims, they do overreact. Protests etc would be fine but burning churches is way over the top, and I will stress again, completely against the true teachings of Islam!! Again this religion is also going dead, most people calling themselves muslims havent even read the Quran and then this extremism thing is absolute madness. Islam does not tell people to go around killing people who've insulted them, in fact its tells them to show patience. Islam is not at fault, its them human beings.

[aimaad22 3453]

you have a holy book which specifically encourages believers to kill infidels

 

What the......where did you get that from?? Its says nothing of the sort. Only in self-defence.

 

The sad fact is that despite their noble ideals Islam and Christianity at a big picture level have brought nothing to the human race but misery and death.

 

Thats what most people dont get. Its not Islam or Christianity that have bought the world to war, its exactly the opposite. Its people either forgetting, or completely altering the teachings of Islam and Christianity that has led to this stage. How many people on this thread have said 'I dont give a crap about religion'? Thats happening all over the world, people forgetting true religion or altering it to suit whatever they feel like at the time. Its not just happening to religion, while muslims and christians are forgetting what their religion tells them, ethics morals etc are disappearing gradually on the world level, no doubt about it.

 

 

Out of context no doubt

 

On your second point its the usual "atheists have no morals" bollocks. As part of my interest in evolution/creationism debates I found out that there were MORE murders in the US before Darwin produced his "satanic" book - this was used to counter the argument that the "downfall" of religion had led to ethical decline.

 

Tell me who has better morals - someone like me who is "good" because I believe in the good of humanity as a whole or someone who is "good" because he desires a reward of paradise or avoidance of hell?

 

 

Where does the Quran say to kill the non-believers?? Its seems to be stressing the point that Allah is the one who will deal with them.

 

One who wants paradise will also want the good of humanity, since that is the way to heaven according to all religions. A lot of evil in this world is brought about by people who dont believe in heaven or hell thus not giving a damn as to their behaviour on the planet. But the answer to your question can vary from person to person. According to religion, both will lead you to heaven.

[NJS 3977]

According to religion, both will lead you to heaven.

 

Nope - acceptance of the deity is a pre-requisite for all of them that I know of.

 

In fact protestants believe that faith alone is a free pass - catholics require "good works" as well.

[NJS 3977]

Where does the Quran say to kill the non-believers?? Its seems to be stressing the point that Allah is the one who will deal with them.

 

Terrorism

 

I'd also say that being killed by believers or the "wrath of Allah" doesn't actually matter if you're dead.

 

On the previous point about the "good" person that section on intolerance shows that disbelievers don't get a sniff of heaven is Islam.

 

 

I admit that I know more about Christianity (and its evil) than I do about Islam but I do wish followers of both creeds would be more honest about their holy books and stop trying to paint a picture of "niceness" which its all to easy to see beyond.

 

Some of my favourite sites:

 

Trash

 

EvilBible

[Renton 17744]

I don't give a shit what it "means" - people are defined by their actions.

 

Muslims worldwide hold to the "identity" of Islam - they speak of a brotherhood which sounds very noble until it becomes apparent that too many of them are fuckwits - then it becomes "but they are't real muslims" or other such bollocks. When the sectarian violence in Iraq really kicked off I read posts on the BBC from Muslims claiming it had to be the CIA/Mossad as "true" muslims wouldn't bomb mosques - get real.

 

Stop hiding behind "its just a few" and address the real issues - you have a holy book which specifically encourages believers to kill infidels (200 "though shalt not kills" do not negate a promise of paradise) - the bible has the same but they're arent anywhere near as many idiots who actually take it at its word.

 

The sad fact is that despite their noble ideals Islam and Christianity at a big picture level have brought nothing to the human race but misery and death.

 

A good post. Anyone who thinks all muslims are like the lunatics we hear from all the time is wrong, but that doesn't hide certain facts. And one of those is that as a religion it has far more angry, volatile, over the top and at times extremely violent reactions to any random slight they percieve.

 

To challenge the view your religion is evil and hate filled by bombing churches, attacking a nun and holding mass protests round the world wanting the pope dead etc. because he mentioned some quote from years ago is just frightening! And that following on from attacks on all things Danish when they published some cartoons in a newspaper, and there are other examples which always result in mass angry protests.

 

I hate all orgaised religions to be honest, but if somebody had come out and said the same comments about christianity you would probably have had a few priests on tv have a whinge and a few people getting mildly annoyed and probably not much else, particularly as the quote was from the bloody middle ages or soemthign like that!

 

People who think all muslims are like that and think they are actually evil etc. would be morons, but anyone who doesn't think as a religion it has far more dangerous and over the top reactions than other religions and leads to more trouble these days are being naive.

 

I mean when was the last time you can ever remember any catholics, protestants, jews, buddhists, mormons, quakers, jedis...etc. etc. going around burning, torching and destroying things and demanding the death of people who have insulted them, not very likely is it? And i don't like those religions either (except the Buddhists and Jedis of course!) but you don't see this same problem en masse with them.

 

And as somebody mentioned earlier in the thread i found it amusing that the pope apologised since he's infalible and represents the will/word of god. He should be sacked tbh!

 

 

Most christian these days openly say they dont give a damn about God. So I wouldnt expect much trouble from them if someone was to openly abuse the faith tomorrow. The religion is just about dead....

 

But you are right about certain muslims, they do overreact. Protests etc would be fine but burning churches is way over the top, and I will stress again, completely against the true teachings of Islam!! Again this religion is also going dead, most people calling themselves muslims havent even read the Quran and then this extremism thing is absolute madness. Islam does not tell people to go around killing people who've insulted them, in fact its tells them to show patience. Islam is not at fault, its them human beings.

 

 

I'm fairly certain the perpetrators of 9/9 and 9/11 were well versed in the Koran. They obviously just interpret it differently to yourself. That's a common problem with most religion, it is always open to interpretation and abuse, and why it is a source of such misery. In fact, as the Holy books were not literally written by God, but were dreamed up by human beings often many years after the events they describe, how can they be anything but subjective?

[NJS 3977]

In fact, as the Holy books were not literally written by God, but were dreamed up by human beings often many years after the events they describe, how can they be anything but subjective?

 

I caught a bit of Tony Rbinson's program on C4 on Saturday about "End of world-ers" who are waiting for revelation to be played out - it was comforting to note that according to some American moron "evolutionists" would be the first ones sent to hell come the glorious day. I could save the entire human race but because I recognise the world is more than 6000 years old I'm damned to burn in hell for ever. So loving these theists.

 

Of course it confirmed what I already know - Revelation was written by someone off his tits on mushrooms.

[Renton 17744]

Where does the Quran say to kill the non-believers?? Its seems to be stressing the point that Allah is the one who will deal with them.

 

Terrorism

 

I'd also say that being killed by believers or the "wrath of Allah" doesn't actually matter if you're dead.

 

On the previous point about the "good" person that section on intolerance shows that disbelievers don't get a sniff of heaven is Islam.

 

 

I admit that I know more about Christianity (and its evil) than I do about Islam but I do wish followers of both creeds would be more honest about their holy books and stop trying to paint a picture of "niceness" which its all to easy to see beyond.

 

Some of my favourite sites:

 

Trash

 

EvilBible

 

Interesting resources NJS. No doubt those statements in the Koran are the results of mistranslation from Arabic to English....

 

The truth is that if you objectively look at what the Bible (especially OT) and Koran say then it's hard to come up with any explanation for them other than they are the product of a more primitive, barbaric time and do not lend any support to a higher being existing. In fact, if God does exist, he must be one vain, twisted bastard. The suffering he allows to go on in the world is of course testament to this.

 

What always amazes me though is the sheer arrogance of religious people who believe that their choice or birthright is the "right" one, and by implication everyone else has backed the wrong horse. This was brilliantly satirisised by South Park once, iirc the Jehovah Witnesses were "right".

[NJS 3977]

Interesting resources NJS. No doubt those statements in the Koran are the results of mistranslation from Arabic to English....

 

The truth is that if you objectively look at what the Bible (especially OT) and Koran say then it's hard to come up with any explanation for them other than they are the product of a more primitive, barbaric time and do not lend any support to a higher being existing. In fact, if God does exist, he must be one vain, twisted bastard. The suffering he allows to go on in the world is of course testament to this.

 

What always amazes me though is the sheer arrogance of religious people who believe that their choice or birthright is the "right" one, and by implication everyone else has backed the wrong horse. This was brilliantly satirisised by South Park once, iirc the Jehovah Witnesses were "right".

 

 

I'm not sure about the history of the Koran in terms of availability but if you read the OT its easy to see why the catholic church (and the rest of them) would be a lot happier if the printing press had never been invented, "peasants" had never learned to read and of course if it had been allowed to remain in Latin for ever.

 

Whats amazing is that people can read it now and still refer to a "loving" God.

 

I can see that in the past religion "made sense" - worshipping the sun or believing a God looked after your people and punished your enemies seemed pretty logical in the absence of much science.

 

Now that we know what a tiny backwater of an almost infinite univese we inhabit, how people can still fall for it astonishes me. In fact it doesn't - its the brainwashing of children thats the secret - ultimately the real evil behind it all imo.

[curry stained pilchard 0]

Interesting resources NJS. No doubt those statements in the Koran are the results of mistranslation from Arabic to English....

 

The truth is that if you objectively look at what the Bible (especially OT) and Koran say then it's hard to come up with any explanation for them other than they are the product of a more primitive, barbaric time and do not lend any support to a higher being existing. In fact, if God does exist, he must be one vain, twisted bastard. The suffering he allows to go on in the world is of course testament to this.

 

What always amazes me though is the sheer arrogance of religious people who believe that their choice or birthright is the "right" one, and by implication everyone else has backed the wrong horse. This was brilliantly satirisised by South Park once, iirc the Jehovah Witnesses were "right".

 

 

I'm not sure about the history of the Koran in terms of availability but if you read the OT its easy to see why the catholic church (and the rest of them) would be a lot happier if the printing press had never been invented, "peasants" had never learned to read and of course if it had been allowed to remain in Latin for ever.

 

Whats amazing is that people can read it now and still refer to a "loving" God.

 

I can see that in the past religion "made sense" - worshipping the sun or believing a God looked after your people and punished your enemies seemed pretty logical in the absence of much science.

 

Now that we know what a tiny backwater of an almost infinite univese we inhabit, how people can still fall for it astonishes me. In fact it doesn't - its the brainwashing of children thats the secret - ultimately the real evil behind it all imo.

 

Amen to that...

Edited September 18, 2006 by Fat Boy

[adios 717]

Please let Aimaad and Leazes work this out between them.

[Renton 17744]

Please let Aimaad and Leazes work this out between them.

 

Jihad meets the crusades. Could be interesting.

[walkinthedog 0]

 

[Gemmill 34413]

Is that real?

[Guest alex]

@ That picture whether it's real or not. Some good points made in this thread I think especiallythat people who have been born into a certain religion and subsequently indoctrinated think they are somehow the chosen ones rather than the other lot. Doesn't explain why people convert to other religions I suppose but that's another debate.

[Rob W 0]

Converts are always more extreme than people born in a faith

[Guest alex]

Converts are always more extreme than people born in a faith

No they aren't. Is Yusuf Islam (formerly Cat Stevens) more extreme than Osama Bin Laden?

[sweetleftpeg 0]

Converts are always more extreme than people born in a faith

No they aren't. Is Yusuf Islam (formerly Cat Stevens) more extreme than Osama Bin Laden?

 

That duet with Ronan was a form of terrorism.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3193]

@ That picture whether it's real or not. Some good points made in this thread I think especiallythat people who have been born into a certain religion and subsequently indoctrinated think they are somehow the chosen ones rather than the other lot. Doesn't explain why people convert to other religions I suppose but that's another debate.

 

Weak minded idiots need to belong to something. Another version of a gang. Generally have problems in their life they don't have the mental capacity to deal with by themselves and don't try counselling or shrinks.

[Guest alex]

@ That picture whether it's real or not. Some good points made in this thread I think especiallythat people who have been born into a certain religion and subsequently indoctrinated think they are somehow the chosen ones rather than the other lot. Doesn't explain why people convert to other religions I suppose but that's another debate.

 

Weak minded idiots need to belong to something. Another version of a gang. Generally have problems in their life they don't have the mental capacity to deal with by themselves and don't try counselling or shrinks.

Bit of a generalisation imo, would Malcolm X fit that profile? What about people who move from one denomination to another over a single issue? Etc.

[Guest alex]

Converts are always more extreme than people born in a faith

No they aren't. Is Yusuf Islam (formerly Cat Stevens) more extreme than Osama Bin Laden?

 

That duet with Ronan was a form of terrorism.

Just a cover wasn't it? Butchered it as usual iirc

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3193]

@ That picture whether it's real or not. Some good points made in this thread I think especiallythat people who have been born into a certain religion and subsequently indoctrinated think they are somehow the chosen ones rather than the other lot. Doesn't explain why people convert to other religions I suppose but that's another debate.

 

Weak minded idiots need to belong to something. Another version of a gang. Generally have problems in their life they don't have the mental capacity to deal with by themselves and don't try counselling or shrinks.

Bit of a generalisation imo, would Malcolm X fit that profile? What about people who move from one denomination to another over a single issue? Etc.

 

Yes Malcolm X fits the bill. Converted in prison when life was sh*t needed to find a sense of belonging. Moving to a different denomination isn't converting really.

[Guest alex]

Malcolm X was a weak-minded idiot then? Disagree there.