OmaxSteve

I found this forum- this thread actually when I "googled" "red bull stratos hoax" because I saw the event and was astounded on the poor quality of the video show as a "Live" fall from 20 miles altitude. I was wondering of other people felt as I did that it must have been a hoax because for two plus hours every shot is crystal clear HighDef clear blue sky until the "jump" when suddenly Felix turns into a tumbling dot of light against a grey background only to suddenly reappear back in HighDef when he approaches a "normal" jumping altitude. I know that I have been asked to leave this forum because my views that 9-11 videos were all faked are not tolerated, but perhaps if we return to the subject at hand - Red Bull Stratos- an event where there were no victims either real or faked, I won't be offending anyone when I say that I believe the video of the free fall portion of the jump was a horrible phony undecipherable piece of crap video and even if it was real I feel that it was a huge waste of time and money. I would just as well have read about the successful jump in the newspaper the following day. If the goal was to simply jump and beat the record, that"s awesome. But if the goal was to do it on live TV in a way that anyone watching it could actually be convinced that it was real, it was a horrible failure. for the record I don"t know Wolfy from Adam, and there is no one who uses that name that has ever posted on the September Clues forum site. If he posts there using another screen name I am not aware of it. No one at the clues forum even felt that the footage of the "jump" was even worthy of discussing or scrutinizing as it was of such poor quality that it would be difficult to accept as visual proof of anything, even if were authentic . The fact is that whether you believed the jump was "feasible" or not , nothing shown on the Telly that day would go a far way to changing anyone's opinion. regards, Steve O.

I know that I said goodbye, but the paper referred to here has been dismissed as invalid by the Journal of Engineering Mechanics; http://ascelibrary.org/doi/abs/10.1061/%28ASCE%29EM.1943-7889.0000362?journalCode=jenmdt Sorry, Ant. Here I go jogging on once again. I would like one opportunity to respopnd to Fish's last past but, unless you allow me to do so, I will leave it at that. Enjoy your Forum. regards, Steve O

Sorry, I must have struck a nerve. . Since you are an administrator of the forum , f I am not welcome here, I will gladly "jog" on. Not sure why all the vitriol. Was not necessary. Regards,and best wishes to all! Steve O.

I answered each statement below the actual line. After asking me NOT to put words in your mouth ( not even sure that I did, but I apologized anyway) you are now trying to frame my arguments in your own words. Why is that necessary. My position is clear: the entire set of 911 videos and photos depicting airplanes are faked. If you can show me even one authentic photo that has not been photoshopped, or altered, or was not computer generated I will be astonished and admit that I my position "may" be misguided. I do not believe that anyone died on fictitious airline crashes, and I believe that the vast majority of "victims" that were purported to have died in the towers were not real people but "simulated" victims. If you have any evidence to the contrary I would be glad to see it. ( "consensus" is not evidence by the way.) Regards, SteveO

Yes the photo was faked , and the people who made the comments that you object to know that it was faked. Is it appropriate to publish the material? yes. The basis of the site is to expose media fakery. Scrutinizing the photos in a public forum is the stated purpose of the site. The fact that there were no listed casualties of any young children ion the towers victims list probably has something to do with people "laughiing" at the fake photo.

DId I ? If so, I apologize and ask you for the same courtesy. Regards, SteveO.

Your own arguments defeats you. You're saying I cannot state as fact it did happen as I wasn't there, yet you can state as fact it didn't happen, despite not being there yourself? Come on Steven, you're better than this. What I actually said was that you don't know that thousands of New Yorkers saw a plane impact with their own eyes, yet you continuously use that assumption as your main argument. I ask again that you please stop putting words in my mouth. Come on Fish, you are better than that. You're insisting that it's fake despite having zero credibility, you haven't expertise in any of the fields that would allow you to make a worthwhile challenge. If you had, you'd be able to provide evidence beyond grainy photos which prove nothing other than your confirmation bias. I'm saying that of the millions of people who've seen the videos, a substantial number are better suited than you to state whether a video is faked or not. And yet no credible experts have pointed out the "obvious" fakery. You throw "credibility" around as easily as you throw absolutes. I personally know of many credible experts that have pointed out the obvious fakery. You talk about arrogance in others yet you can not seem to make a single argument without making ludicrous claims about what other people ( the masses") have seen, said or done. (i.e thousands of witnesses.. millions of people scrutinized , no credible experts.) Who gets to determine what's credible? Isn't that the basis of the whole discussion. Wolfy and I , and others ,question things when we seen them as "incredible". You , and many others on this forum accept the incredible as fact because you saw it on TV. I am confident enough in my own cognitive abilities to be able to determine , upon close inspection, whether or not something is real or fabricated. This is the arrogance I'm talking about. You aren't educated in the fields to give testimony on the subjects. Be it "What happens to an airplane which collides with a building at 500mph" or "The probability of a passport of one of the terrorists being discovered". You're simply seeking for patterns in a chaotic world, or hoping that this tangled web is actually controlled by some shadowy puppet master. Yet you dismiss expert testimony out of hand. From where do you get that authority? Sorry Fish, I didn;t know that the porerequisite for disagreeing or debating with you is that I had to give "expert testimony". Are you claiming that your testimonies here are that of an expert? I have already pointed out numerous fallacies in every one of your arguments. Once again you are are trying to put words in my mouth , who do you think you are to tell me what I am seeking? (oh, yeah , I forgot you are an expert). Talk about arrogance, Where have I dismissed expert testimony "out of hand" ? Are your speaking of your testimony about thousands of witnesses and millions of scrutinizers? That is what I am dismissing out pf hand, because it deserves to be dismissed as total bull shit. You think that you can write anything you want and that somehow makes it true? Where did you get that authority? Isn't it telling that the conspiracies are alike? there is always a "THEM", always a sinister plot. To dupe the masses, but only the "truthers" are privy to the real goings on. I mean, seriously, for you to believe you've uncovered some vast and ranging scheme, you're stating you're smarter than everyone else. Which is astounding in it's delusion. Keep spouting bullshit, Fish. I never mentioned conspiracy but since you brought it up, the "official " story is a conspiracy theory. It states that 19 arabs armed with boxcutters, hijacked 4 airlines flew around uncontested for over an hour escaping the largest military air defense in the world, crashing onto two towers with amazing precision and and hit the ground floor of the penatagon at full speed with out even scratching the lawn. These planes, their engines, the entire fuselage, seats luggage and passengers immediately vaporised leaving no discernible evidence that they ever existed. All this orchestrated by Osama bIn Ladin from a cave somewhere in Afghanistan who somehow managed to render he Pentagon security cameras dysfunctional that day, (there has never been an image shown to the public of a plane that crashed in to the pentagon) . It is merely a coincidence that the Department of Defense was undergoing an exercise that day which involved hijacked airplanes being flown into buildings, and that the plane hit the exact office of the pentagon where the financial records are kept that could have shed some light on the billions of dollars that Donald Rumsfield publicly announced could not be accounted for the day before on Sept 10th. Also a coincidence that the towers that were destroyed had been bought only months before the attacks and insurance taken out specifically against terrorist attacks). Can you honestly believe this "official" conspiracy theory and seriously claim that I am the one who is delusional? Are there lies the government tell, yes, of course there are. Are they faking the deaths of thousands to push an agenda easily achieved through less complex, convoluted (and frankly bizarre) methods? As I said to Wolfy, why fake planes when the same effect comes from just blowing up the buildings with men and bombs? There is no reason, but I'm sure you'll try and fabricate one. I cannot answer your questions as to why it was done this way for only the perpetrators would have such knowledge. I can speculate as to my own opinions but that is not the object of this discussion. I can say with some degree of certainty , that the use of planes was for financial purposes, as their was evidence to an astronomically unusual amount of short trading on ONLY two airlines in the days leading up to 9-11. http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2010/06/sec-government-destroyed-documents-regarding-pre-911-put-options.html another coincidence, perhaps? end of the day if this is your little hobby, fine, but don't call other people deluded or blind or sheep, it's the worst kind of arrogance. One based on no kind of foundation. My arrogance is based on seeing scores of your type torn to ribbons by men and women far smarter than me and far far smarter than you. And as such, my arrogance is perfectly reasonable). Please point me to where you have seen scores of "my type" tron to ribbons. If your arguments here are an example of what you have seen then I think you may be mistaking who exactly is being torn to ribbons. I have no idea about how smart you are , or how smart your "ribbon tearers" are, but I try not to state as fact things that I know nothing about . It may be wise if you followed that same principle, regards, SteveO.

The Fish, on 16 October 2012 - 10:30 AM, said: For a start, I respect the fact you've leapt into the lion pit as it were. Now that's out the way, you've got to be fucking kidding if you think an entire city is complicit in a lie. That you think that hundreds of people are lying about witnessing one of the worst disasters to be committed by the hands of men. However interesting, it is difficult to debate with you if you continuously put words in my mouth. Secondly you keep repeating as fact that hundreds (if not thousands) of NewYorkers witnessed a plane (or planes) crashing into a building that day. This is a "strawman" argument . You are assuming that hundreds, of people witnessed a plane crashing into the towers- since you believe that it happened and if it did there would have had to be hundreds of witnesses. My position is that it did not happen and therefore there were no witnesses. Simply stating, and continuously repeating, that there were witnesses does not make it so. I know this because all the images have been scrutinised by millions of people and the overwhelming majority concur with reality and state they're not faked Yet another straw man argument ,,, do you know actually know of anyone at all that has actually SCRUTINIZED the images and stated that they were NOT faked? Certainly you don't know millions of people that have scrutinized anything, let alone what they stated their opinion to be after having performed the examination. Please don't ask me to be accurate in my language when you are far more guilty of inaccuracy than I am . Unfortunately, I have other things to attend to right now, so I cannot continue rebutting your comments.at this time. We can save ourselves a lot of time and effort however if you will agree to stop claiming as fact things that you have no first hand knowledge about.. The next time you say that there were "thousands" of New Yorkers that witnessed the impact of the plane" it will be my signal to discontinue this conversation. We are having a discussion about whether or not something (planes impacting towres) actually happened. My position is that it only happened on television with faked video. you are claiming that it actually happened. If you continue to state and accept as fact that thousands of new yorkers saw it happen, what is the point of the discussion? Is it possible that people saw it happen AND also the video were faked? That would be patently ridiculous. (why the need to fake video of something that actually happened, and how would they have had a chance to prepare the faked video ahead of the "enexpected ' event. Therefore the argument rests on whether or not the video were faked, and nothing else. That is why your claim that millions of people have scrutinized the images and declared them to be real is a ridiculous statement . You might instead say that millions of people saw the video and BELIEVED them to be real. That would be an accurate statement, and that is what we are discussing. If you agree, and are willing to stick to discussing the veracity of the videos shown that day (this is how it all started.. Wolfy questioned the veracity of the Red Bull free fall video that was broadcasted) I will be happy to continue debating with you. If not, please stop wasting your time, and mine. regards, SteveO.

Here are three pictures that prove the images of jumpers (every single one still and video image has been analyzed and proven to be fake) are photoshopped. Those two are real pictures... now look at this one, an obvious phony: EDIT:: sorry I inadvertently posted the same picture twice , that is the reason for editing. (S.O). I repeat : the evidence for video and photo fakery is overwhelming. Until I saw the mountain of evidence for myself I could not believe that this whole thing was a hoax. Now there is no question in my mind . The fact is that even ONE single faked video depicting a plane crashing into a building "live" on 9-11 should be enough to prove that the whole thing was nothing ore than a Hollywood movie. The reality is that EVERY SINGLE video and still photo of an airplane have been scrutinized and there is not ONE SINGLE shot that has held up to be a real, unaltered, photo or video. All the available "jumper" photos, without exception, have also been found to be fraudulent.

So you are willing to state that you believe the hijacker passport story? Interesting , a tad gullible perhaps? My position is that the major media networks were all complicit in broadcasting OBVIOUSLY faked video showing airplanes crashing into buildings. I never said that the entire population of the city was complicit, because I have no first hand knowledge of anyone that claims to have seen a plane strike the buildings that day , other than those that were interviewed on television. Most of those that were interviewed on television admitted to having "witnessed" the crash on television and not with their own eyes. There were just as many, if not more that were interviewed that said they did not see any plane than those who said they did..I I will say, without hesitation, that anyone who claims to have seen a plane strike and enter a tower on 911 (not on television) is lying about that fact. I am claiming ,and i do believe that anyone could possibly have died in airplanes that did not crash. You mention that this was "one of the worst disasters to be committed by the hands of men" . How so? 9- was a plan to demolish the WTC complex which (public record) needed to be recommissioned to remove asbestos at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars. It was one of the greatest frauds ever committed by man in that the buildings were demolished for free, and it also gave US government the conditions that needed to start a war with a new enemy... the "war on terror". The truth is that Americans have statistically a far better chance to drown in their own bathtubs than they do to fall at the hands of a terrorist. I do not live in any fear, at least not fear of terrorists. Thanks for your concern ,though. The ones who are living in fear are those that believe the story and allow themselves to stand in lines at the airport while they are being screened for scissors or shampoo, because we all know that terrorists/suicide bombers will never blow themselves up in the crowded line up at security. Any terrorist will rather take the chance to be caught going through security so they can blow up the airplane only in the sky after it has taking off/. I am not sure why you feel it is important whether or not I have studied demolition or flight science. It does not take a rocket scientist to recognize phony videos. Perhaps it would be helpful for this discussion to do some studying, or research in modern history. I leave you with this quote (referencing the Gulf of Tonkin False Flag attack that lead to the escalation of the Vietnam war: Nearly three decades later, during the Gulf War, columnist Sydney Schanberg warned journalists not to forget "our unquestioning chorus of agreeability when Lyndon Johnson bamboozled us with his fabrication of the Gulf of Tonkin incident." Schanberg blamed not only the press but also "the apparent amnesia of the wider American public." And he added: "We Americans are the ultimate innocents. We are forever desperate to believe that this time the government is telling us the truth.

yes , but are they real? Edit: That was in refernce to Jamie Lee Curtis photo/ SteveO.,

On what evidence do you base the assumption that hundreds, if not thousands, of New Yorkers saw a plane strike the second tower? The way that the story is "sold" is that everyone is led to believe that so many people saw it happen it had to be real. The truth is that the only people who saw a plane strike the tower were those that saw it on television. It took only a few planted witnesses, and the "trusted" news anchors to repeat the fact that it was a plane and that became the "accepted" story, Again you will only need to watch the "live" broadcasts with an open mind to realize that the story we were told (sold?) was scripted well in advance of the actual events,. The problem is that most people do not want to know the truth, It is too difficult for them to accept the fact that their government would do anything so heinous as fake a terrorist attack in order to advance an agenda of War. The truth is that "false flag" attacks have and continue to be used by governments all over the world. The good news in this case, is that most ( the large majority) of the "victims" were only imaginary , or simulated victims and not real people. The fact that people actually believe that planes hit the towers, which then collapsed leaving a pile of rubble with no discernible plane engines, toilets file cabinets, door handles, urinals, etc.etc. etc. but one of the terrorists passport was discovered a block a way in near perfect condition, Does anyone here really believe that the passport jumped out the terrorists pocket and survived intact , but no luggage , seats, coffee carts, were discovered? Come on.... it's valiant of you to try and "protect" the official story but really, do you expect any sane person to believe that BS?

It doesn't matter how many videos and stills there are of Air Planes melting into buildings, I have seen most, if not all of them, and I have yet to see one that hasn't been PROVEN to be a faked, or photo shopped. I know that t sounds incredible, and those who have not watched the "live" video of the major networks ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, and CNN side by side and frame by frame might think its insane , however I challenge anyone to watch the so-called "live" TV broadcasts during 911 as seen here : http://septemberclues.info/wtc_airplanes.htm and NOT come to the conclusion that it was anything but a giant Media faked event. It is sometimes easier to " agree " with popular opinion, than to hold on to one's principles and speak up and risk being called "insane" or a fool. We all know the story of the emperors new clothes... Do some research and see the facts for yourself. The evidence for video fakery is OVERWHELMING and there for all to see., I have yet to see anyone watch the "live" 911 broadcasts again, presented side by side, and still believe they were watching something that even remotely depicted reality. Again, I have no real desire to argue or try to convince anyone of anything. My purpose here was to support Wolfy who was getting "trounced" (in my opinion, unfairly) for expressing his opinion. An opinion that I share, and frankly thing it significantly less "far-fetched" than believing that someone actually jumped out of a "pod" that was over 20 miles high in the air and got there by being lifted by a helium balloon. The only thing more ludicrous , in my opinion, is that of the record Baumgartner supposedly broke ; where someone jumped out of an open air basket attached to a helium (or was it a hot air?) balloon some 50 years ago from 19 miles altitude. Regards, SteveO.

Actually, I would expect a plane to crash when it hit something, most likely slow down, and like every other time a plane has crashed, and huge sections go flying in different directons., IF a plane actually hit into the side of a building. In any case, Legend, you can go on believing that something is real simply because you saw it on your TV screen, but don't claim that is others who do not have a grasp of the basic laws of physics. I am not here to discuss the truth of 911 with you , only to point out that the media broadcast fake videos and reports it truth on a regular basis. One you accept that as a fact, you will be less likely to be fooled by third rate low definition images purporting to show some event as if were real. Regards, SteveO. SteveO