NJS

I'm sure Edwards thinks that, but there's still no believable explanation of the cenotaph/laughter episodes in my view. That's before considering the punch thing - admittedly that wasn't BBC alone but it came from the same area - "correspondents" happily acting as conduits for Cummings' lies.

Unfortunately I've read a couple of things which suggest Renton is right (shock horror I know) about shite like saluting the flag and a willingness to incinerate millions of people for no logical reason whatsoever (I think Ewerk said this as well). The same mentality had a big effect on the actual brexit ref as well - this idea of know-towing to the monarchy/empire and a nostalgia for olden (more white) years where Britain was more important. It's a hard one for the people trying to persuade them as the underlying xenophobia is the opposite of what Labour should be and is all about to the youth. Of course Blair played that game but Milliband certainly tried and seemed to fail the same doorstep test to a lesser degree than Corbyn. I think we do need someone who can play that role unflinchingly to counteract the media assassination - of the mooted candidates and can only really say Starmer succeeding.

I think there's been discussions and debates at Labour conferences about PR without really getting anywhere - maybe there'll be more now.

It's not for me - someone deliberately decided to edit out the laughter and happened to insert an put of date clip which was better for him - mistakes my arse. I think the "majority he so deserves" could have been a slip where she meant to say "desires" but the other two still rankle.

Why the fuck is he playing Atsu on the right and Joelinton on the left?

I posted that - it's right that nl took the heartlands for granted and the hi-tech job delivery never happened.

Problem was there were no alternative left wing candidates - that's a shame in itself as the centrists who scream about a broad church didn't think that church should go that far with their MP selections.

You're right to an extent but the danger is that the next question is so why did the crash happen? I know the answer but the argument was mainly lost.

I think that was the plan mooted in 2017 - franchise expiration works for the trains but maybes not for the others as it happens.

I agree - but I'd add that a lot of older cunts like you and me have had the ambition beaten out of us by the decades.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/14/labour-meltdown-decades-govern-votes Slags off Blair and Corbyn and I agree with a lot of both sides - I still think Renton's description of Blair "transforming the country" is overstated but the point about not doing enough for the heartlands and taking them for granted is spot on.

I agree up.to a point nut why does it have to be centrist to win? Against Major, Blair had to be just a bit different to capitalise on the sense that the tories had been in too long. Now we have a tory party that's moved some distance to the right and a centre vote that's collapsed. I honestly think your brand of unambitious centrism will not be enough to do any good. I've read a few things about the visceral hatred of Corbyn among older voters which I understand and accept. Given the radicalism of the younger army of members I don't see why a better leader with a more realistic but still ambitious agenda can't do well. I'd also point out that while disastrous in seat terms, from a numerical and share pov there have been worse so to abandon all hope is premature.

2017 has a lot to answer for - if Thursday had happened then we could have moved on.

Heard a couple of people at work saying the majority means Johnson can be his real self now and ditch the right wingers. Naivety rules.

Exactly the same shite Trump came out with when he won. That worked well.

What do you think Corbyn's "early next year" means? I reckon March the 31st.

Upbringing and a conscience is a bastard sometimes.

Read something suggesting Labour will need a Kinnock to prepare the way for a Blair - place on the spectrum aside, that sort of makes sense. I'm old enough to remember 83 and 87 - I think we just need a little faith that a recovery is possible - death knells considering the number of votes cast are a bit premature and I don't think there's an overwhelming desire for total centrism.

Electoral system is bullshit like - Labour got 800k more votes than 2005 - it's the spread/location/turnout that matters.

In 2017 as both parties were both basically leave, other issues were discussed. This time it looks like it was all brexit where it mattered.

The only strong position on Brexit that would have made a difference is going full leave.

For all the slagging off of Cameron he's won - he's killed ukip and given the tories at least another 5 years, probably more of power. Knighthood probably beckons.

Looks like going full remain wouldn't have helped as it's the leavers who voted tory.

Or vice versa.

My gut instinct is still a 20-25 majority. There's a load of ridiculous place like grimsby and Bishop Auckland going to go tory to offset the likes of Putney. Hasn't the cunt made sure all of the candidates are his lickspittels?