NJS

I think the libs tacitly hoped/hope to have no deal versus remain to load the vote - I don't think that's fair really. As I said not much discussion has been had about another leave victory.

My understanding was that the transition allowed a negotiation on all elements of a future relationship - as I said I may be wrong. I think Swinson muddyed the water with the revoke without a vote thing - they still won't answer what they want the other option in a vote to be and what they'd do if leave won - I think having a reasonable alternative to cover the latter outcome is sensible but again you'd have to explain this well.

Unfortunately politics isn't about good policies or making sense by and large - it's about emotive reactions to people and ideas. I think we all agree Corbyn falls short in the "good leader" stakes but it's also a matter of long held attitudes that won't change - things like demanding a leader who worships the queen and is willing to nuke millions still holds sway. That now includes brexit which is reduced to zealots on both sides and neutrals completely bored with it who want it to end anyway possible. I'm beginning to think Johnson fluking a semblance of May's deal through might not be that bad as I think there's enough room in the political statement to soften it to an acceptable level if Labour did win (I might be wrong on this).

That's what I meant - as I've said somebody has to try to talk to both sides but too many bloody minded remainers will now vote lib dem, not get a second ref and will get 5 years of that corrupt fraud as pm.

Sensible but fatal is still my view.

I agree - I've always said the way to solve education and health in the UK is to abolish the private option as the powers that be would take 5 minutes to fix them if they had to use them but that would have to be done gradually. As you say it will frighten people who think of themselves as middle income (they aren't) and bow down to privilege.

I'm all for the bringing the country together view but that needs power and he's killing the chance of that imo. To be honest I can see this causing a leadership challenge which I'm okay with as long as it isn't an out and out centrist who prevails.

Joelinton's transfer stinks more an more each week. Lad tries but if he's worth 40m then the game is a lot more fucked than I thought. Wilhems is fucking shit as well.

Hysteria for Andy Carroll - fucking hell, that's how shit we are.

The alternative being domination by 250 individuals a good portion of whom are appointees from the NL era. Labour was always criticised for being run by union barons casting block votes - Milliband put control in the hand of members just like the other parties - you just don't like those members.

I think that kind of bargain suggested by Thornberry was mooted when those talks took place with May earlier in the year but the tories think another vote is completely out of the question.

I saw a poll yesterday where the (still alive) people who voted in 2016 was 52-48 leave and including new voters it was 52-48 remain. Aside from assuming victory ignoring what's is still half the country seems dubious. It also shows the arguments since have been so shit they haven't any visible effect.

I think it was wrong for Brown as well (even though he offered to go) - the GE is fought on a manifesto which may have negotiation room but a leader is the party's business.

She's going to pull the Clegg "change your leader and we'll talk" trick which is fucking disgusting to me.

Swinson was interviewed yesterday and mocked the tories for spending money and alluded to tough choices suggesting more austerity. I saw it suggested she's positioning them as Cameron's tory party leaving Johnson more akin to ukip which I sort of agreed with. As a few people have also suggested her aim is to try and win 30 or more seats rather than to stop brexit.