Happy Face

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated I don't think it's fabricated, I can understand it though. When you have the level of hypocrisy whereby Obama, flanked by Brown can say Iran "is breaking rules that all nations must follow" while continuing to torture detainees to death. And Iran shooting people for protesting against a completely rigged election is "ok"? Not sure where you get that impression. So is Iran a worse regime than the USA? Based on that one criteria? That's a question that invites a 5000 word essay. Iran have rigged elections...The US have rigged elections Iran torture...the US torture Iran kill their own citizens for protesting....the US kill their own citizens for protesting The US bomb and kill hundreds of thousands of other countries civilians...Iran don't Iran have the death penalty...the US have the death penalty Iran's religious zealots kill a LOT of people....the US religious zealots kill some people Iran treat women disgracefully...women are almost equal in America etc... So you are saying you think that the USA is as bad (or worse) as Iran? Taliban or IRA? Pirate or Ninja? Mr T or Chuck Norris? We really need a TV show to investigate and tell us the answer. It's a simple question Chris. Is Iran a worse regime than the USA? The fact you think it's a simple question says it all really.

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated I don't think it's fabricated, I can understand it though. When you have the level of hypocrisy whereby Obama, flanked by Brown can say Iran "is breaking rules that all nations must follow" while continuing to torture detainees to death. And Iran shooting people for protesting against a completely rigged election is "ok"? Not sure where you get that impression. So is Iran a worse regime than the USA? Based on that one criteria? That's a question that invites a 5000 word essay. Iran have rigged elections...The US have rigged elections Iran torture...the US torture Iran kill their own citizens for protesting....the US kill their own citizens for protesting The US bomb and kill hundreds of thousands of other countries civilians...Iran don't Iran have the death penalty...the US have the death penalty Iran's religious zealots kill a LOT of people....the US religious zealots kill some people Iran treat women disgracefully...women are almost equal in America etc... So you are saying you think that the USA is as bad (or worse) as Iran? Taliban or IRA? Pirate or Ninja? Mr T or Chuck Norris? We really need a TV show to investigate and tell us the answer.

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated I don't think it's fabricated, I can understand it though. When you have the level of hypocrisy whereby Obama, flanked by Brown can say Iran "is breaking rules that all nations must follow" while continuing to torture detainees to death. And Iran shooting people for protesting against a completely rigged election is "ok"? Not sure where you get that impression. So is Iran a worse regime than the USA? Based on that one criteria? That's a question that invites a 5000 word essay. Iran have rigged elections...The US have rigged elections Iran torture...the US torture Iran kill their own citizens for protesting....the US kill their own citizens for protesting The US bomb and kill hundreds of thousands of other countries civilians...Iran don't Iran have the death penalty...the US have the death penalty Iran's religious zealots kill a LOT of people....the US religious zealots kill some people Iran treat women disgracefully...women are almost equal in America etc...

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated I don't think it's fabricated, I can understand it though. When you have the level of hypocrisy whereby Obama, flanked by Brown can say Iran "is breaking rules that all nations must follow" while continuing to torture detainees to death. And Iran shooting people for protesting against a completely rigged election is "ok"? Not sure where you get that impression.

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated I don't think it's fabricated, I can understand it though. When you have the level of hypocrisy whereby Obama, flanked by Brown can say Iran "is breaking rules that all nations must follow" while continuing to torture detainees to death. Yeah, but there is proportionate response mate. Crying for Iran to be wiped off the face of the planet, while conducting nuclear progress is bound to provoke this kind of reaction from the west. Flip the tables; if Germany (for example) had called for Iran to be wiped off the face of the planet, it wouldn't be met with stern phrase and concerned faces. There'd be rioting on the streets, calls for Angie to be beheaded. Fucking hell, you can't call a teddy bear Mohammed, you can't draw his likeness! I expect them to be distrustful of the west, to be disdainful of Israel, but unfortunately I also expect them to ignore laws they don't agree with and fail to admonish or properly punish the zealots. You say Obama and Brown are hypocrites, but the radicals in Iran are reactionary hypocrites themselves. They demand equality on the global stage, but don't even give equality to their own people. They've (rightly) remarked on the despicable torturing, but summarliy beat women in public for not wearing the right kind of scarf. I'm all for pluracy, I'm all for inclusion, but sometimes you have to wonder how many exceptions we have to make to account for their sensibilities? As much as we need to take steps towards atoning for past mistakes and building a better relationship with them, they need to do the same for us. There is progress being made, but I don't think it's happening in the right places. Roy Keane is a puppet of the entrenched regime and while they're in power there isn't enough that's going to change. (sorry for rambling) No need to apologise. An excellent post that says more in 4 or 5 paragraphs than Fop could in 6 pages. I would say there is fear in the Muslim world that the west does want to wipe them off the map. And actions, not just words, suggest it too. They see Israel continue it's march into Gaza backed by western might, and can't be blamed for drawing that conclusion.

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated I don't think it's fabricated, I can understand it though. When you have the level of hypocrisy whereby Obama, flanked by Brown can say Iran "is breaking rules that all nations must follow" while continuing to torture detainees to death.

Who was the white kid who said he was black to try and win a racism argument on here?

How many times are we going to go around this circle? How are you going to gather this "undeniable evidence?" The UN nuclear assembly voted for Israel to accede to the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and place all atomic sites under UN inspections. Israel promised to "not cooperate in any matter with this resolution". Are you saying we should impose sanctions on Israel and forcefully expose their atomic sites? Did you read the Bayh, Kyl, Lieberman statement? You can do so here. source That's VERY different. I've not seen that. Be interested to if you have the link. Either way, as I said before, if they have contravened the amendment, it's a tiny infraction compared with Israel. The only explanation I've seen is the fear of US, Israeli attacks, which as I quoted before have been deemed very plausible.

The Scout Association can't be wrong about Israel's nuclear capability can it Chris? Soon you'll be saying eco-pressure groups can be wrong about Israel's nuclear capability. If you're going to try and joke your way out of a hole it helps if the jokes are funny. Why is Iran's transparency over it's nuclear program of greater concern to you than Israels secrecy around it's own and it's refusal to comply with any UN resolutions on the matter? Given that Israel, by it's actions as opposed to rhetoric, have shown themselves to be a far more dangerous player in the middle east.

So what more racist language do you feel you can't use for fear of repraisals from the PC brigade, given I as chairman have not had a problem with any of the above?

No country should be given the benefit of the doubt. At the moment Israel are the only nation that has a policy of non-cooperation. The international community are cornering Iran. Just about every major nation at the General assembly gave them a warning. The war drum is banging against them. It's generally agreed that nuclear weapons are bad. That's what the non-proliferation treaty is all about. No countries should be allowed to start or to expand nuclear programs. So if Iran shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt what should be done if they don't cooperate? And how should they be stopped from starting their nuclear program? Also why build it underground? It is expensive to do and has no real benefit other than secrecy? Fop returns to his dreamworld of what if? The fact is they ARE cooperating. If they don't, fine, impose sanctions, make inspections by force. Yes, I made that point earlier myself about Iran rejecting a single amendment that applies to no other nation. Nowhere close to Israels level of defiance.

I'd be glad to...if they'd allow inspections. Their policy of non-cooperation is what suggests otherwise. Iran are cooperating. But there is no evidence, so they should surely be give the benefit of the doubt (instead of scaremongering by eco-pressure groups) in fact the Scout Association just finished a report which said Israel had no nuclear weapons at all. You think we shouldn't have any oversight until there's evidence...but you don't think evidence should be gathered? I think you're a tad confused and best stop digging.

Not part of the neo-fascist evangelical future then? Losing the middle east debate Fop went in search of other morsels to bait his hook. Unfortunately this week old scrap didn't provide the rich pickings he had hoped for.

No country should be given the benefit of the doubt. At the moment Israel are the only nation that has a policy of non-cooperation. The international community are cornering Iran. Just about every major nation at the General assembly gave them a warning. The war drum is banging against them. It's generally agreed that nuclear weapons are bad. That's what the non-proliferation treaty is all about. No countries should be allowed to start or to expand nuclear programs.

If no action is taken then yes, I'd have thought Iran would develop the bomb too. That's why the UN impose rules that Iran comply with. I take exception to the conspiracy tag. A conspiracy has very little fact to back it up. I'm yet to see any evidence of an Iranian plot. If anyone provides it then I'll join in the outrage. I do know Israel are a huge customer to the US, whose power of veto at the UN does them a lot of favours.

I'd be glad to...if they'd allow inspections. Their policy of non-cooperation is what suggests otherwise. Iran are cooperating.

So are you saying that Israel doesn't have nuclear weapons then? No. Read carefully. The have no transparency in the nuclear program they're known to have. Iran provide complete transparency to show they have no nuclear program. The current outrage is misplaced given these facts. f you feel the outrage toward Iran is justified, would you impose sanctions? Would you attack?

Thing is Isreal could currently forge themselves a serious empire in the area, as things stand. Now reverse the roles and put Iran in that position..... would Israel then even exist? Again, you keep going into unknowns and what if's. Israel are the major force and with every action they take in the Gaza Strip they are wiping out it's inhabitants....but your fear is that Iran might possibly take retribution if we allow them to get strong enough to make Israel think twice about it's apartheid regime. Back in reality Iran has been heavily chastised for following the rules and virtually nothing has been said about the Israeli refusal to abide by exactly the same rules. We continue to support the occupying army that flaunts international law and kills thousands of innocent people. Israel acquired it's nuclear technology in the 60s didn't it? Sorry like, the same rules don't apply to Israel now as they do for Iran. Also I might add that so far Israel has remained a responsible nuclear power, I simply don't have that level of trust regarding the Iranian fundamentalists. I'm not saying Israel is without blame in this and it's very complicated, but I don't have any fears they're about to nuke Tehran. I'm not so sure I'd have confidence if it was the other way round though. 1979 is the reported date Israel began testing. The same rules don't apply for Israel only because of the US backing they get in the UN as one of their biggest customers. Israel is not a member of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and refuses to officially confirm or deny having a nuclear arsenal, or having developed nuclear weapons, or even having a nuclear weapons program. Israel has pledged not to be the first country to introduce nuclear weapons into the region, but is also pursuing a policy of strategic ambiguity with regard to their possession. According to the Natural Resources Defense Council and the Federation of American Scientists, Israel possesses around 75–200 weapons. I'm sure Iran would love to be able to bring some parity, but there's no suggestion they've attempted to yet. Erm...... I think it's safe to say there's some suggestion HF. If not, then there's no issue any way. Hurray! The issue is the propaganda spread by the western media that Iran are about ready to let off a nuclear strike and will continue to plague the region unless action is taken. It's the total opposite of reality and similar to the lies used to justify war in Iraq.

I've missed him dearly. My oldest friend enjoys arguing more than debating too. You're not called Dean are you Fop?

Like a cornered tiger...dangerous. and No If you feel the outrage toward Iran is justified, would you impose sanctions? Would you attack?

Thing is Isreal could currently forge themselves a serious empire in the area, as things stand. Now reverse the roles and put Iran in that position..... would Israel then even exist? Again, you keep going into unknowns and what if's. Israel are the major force and with every action they take in the Gaza Strip they are wiping out it's inhabitants....but your fear is that Iran might possibly take retribution if we allow them to get strong enough to make Israel think twice about it's apartheid regime. Back in reality Iran has been heavily chastised for following the rules and virtually nothing has been said about the Israeli refusal to abide by exactly the same rules. We continue to support the occupying army that flaunts international law and kills thousands of innocent people. Israel acquired it's nuclear technology in the 60s didn't it? Sorry like, the same rules don't apply to Israel now as they do for Iran. Also I might add that so far Israel has remained a responsible nuclear power, I simply don't have that level of trust regarding the Iranian fundamentalists. I'm not saying Israel is without blame in this and it's very complicated, but I don't have any fears they're about to nuke Tehran. I'm not so sure I'd have confidence if it was the other way round though. 1979 is the reported date Israel began testing. The same rules don't apply for Israel only because of the US backing they get in the UN as one of their biggest customers. Israel is not a member of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and refuses to officially confirm or deny having a nuclear arsenal, or having developed nuclear weapons, or even having a nuclear weapons program. Israel has pledged not to be the first country to introduce nuclear weapons into the region, but is also pursuing a policy of strategic ambiguity with regard to their possession. According to the Natural Resources Defense Council and the Federation of American Scientists, Israel possesses around 75–200 weapons. I'm sure Iran would love to be able to bring some parity, but there's no suggestion they've attempted to yet.

Thing is Isreal could currently forge themselves a serious empire in the area, as things stand. Now reverse the roles and put Iran in that position..... would Israel then even exist? Again, you keep going into unknowns and what if's. Israel are the major force and with every action they take in the Gaza Strip they are wiping out it's inhabitants....but your fear is that Iran might possibly take retribution if we allow them to get strong enough to make Israel think twice about it's apartheid regime. How would you describe Iran's regime? Are you saying you'd rather Iran have nuclear weapons than Israel? Does one of those countries HAVE to proliferate? Is that the only choice? Iran are following the rules...Israel aren't. If you feel the outrage toward Iran is justified, would you impose sanctions? Would you attack?

IranIsrael peacefully testing peace missiles for peaceful uses. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...le-missile.html http://www.fas.org/news/israel/e20000502pentagon.htm

Thing is Isreal could currently forge themselves a serious empire in the area, as things stand. Now reverse the roles and put Iran in that position..... would Israel then even exist? Again, you keep going into unknowns and what if's. Israel are the major force and with every action they take in the Gaza Strip they are wiping out it's inhabitants....but your fear is that Iran might possibly take retribution if we allow them to get strong enough to make Israel think twice about it's apartheid regime. Back in reality Iran has been heavily chastised for following the rules and virtually nothing has been said about the Israeli refusal to abide by exactly the same rules. We continue to support the occupying army that flaunts international law and kills thousands of innocent people.

Last week... http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/0...t_israeli_nukes So Iran are a dangerous rogue state for co-operating and being completely transparent while Israel are only protecting themself from the loons and are within their right to flaunt international resolutions to keep their nuclear program secret. Honestly, if the mainstream reporting of this wasn't so frighteningly supportive of the war mongering states it would be funnier than viz.