NJS
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Posts posted by NJS
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A few thoughts:
The one thing I really admire the US for is the separation clause in the constitution. Religion has no place in schools.
I read recently the CofE want an exemption clause from equality legislation on homosexuality - basically they want the right to continue teaching illegal hatred and bigotry with tax payers money.
There ae two things I will never forgive Blair for - within 2 weeks of coming to power he invited the Bitch around for a cosy chat and secondly for his defence of Emmannuel teaching lies as science.
Anyone who is for faith schools should be made to watch the video from Ulster of adults screaming hatred at kids from a few years ago because the path to their school went too close to the "wrong" side.
Having said all that it is true that they tend to get better results - I'd have a good look at why - is it just the intake comes from more "decent" folk (which I accept some theists are) or is it as they would argue some kind of moral ethos?
Of course I'd ban them and to prevent the retreat to privately funded bigotry I'd do as I said in the 5 pieces of legislation thread and make private education itself illegal.
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1. Abolish and make illegal all private education and health cover (and obviously obliterate religion from all state schools at the same time) - people who try and get around it by sending kids abroad or using foreign health service to be refused re-entry and be stripped of citizenship. I believe these two services will never "work" while the rich and powerful opt out of them.
2. Renationalise without compensation all public utilities including rail etc.
3. Execute the first 1000 people in line to the throne and confiscate all "long term" inherited wealth - eg Duke of Westminster's property.
4. Inheritance tax to be 100% with no exemption bracket - so that everybody starts off in life with the same opportunities.
5. Introduce a universal contraceptive into the water supply/food chain and supply the antidote under licence.
Wonderful ideals, totally impractical, if even fair. You expect people who work their arses off to provide the same opportunities to their children as someone who does the bare minimum?
Don't forget to tell the last one out to turn out the lights, because those remaining won't be able to afford it.
To turn yout point around why should waste of space kids get a lift in life from hard working parents?
If people's only motive in life is to leave a "stash" for the kids after death then I think thats sad - you should enjoy the fruit of your own work and hope that your kids can look after themselves. Inherited wealth propogates class, power and everthing else thats unfair in this country.
Or to turn yours around, why should a person who has spent the last x years of their life looking after a sick parent suddenly be left with nowt?
as for:
1. Abolish and make illegal all private education and health cover (and obviously obliterate religion from all state schools at the same time) - people who try and get around it by sending kids abroad or using foreign health service to be refused re-entry and be stripped of citizenship. I believe these two services will never "work" while the rich and powerful opt out of them.How would this help those services? they are currently stretched, what you're saying is add in another million or so people into each. Breed a blackmarket for operations etc as Joe Bloggs the multimillionaire has a dodgy hip, under your rules he cant legally jump the queue by going private so he goes for his consultation, pulls out a wad of cash and tempts the consultant to lift him above little old Mrs Muggins who only offered him a Werthers Original.
In my world relatives would never have to look after the sick - I know some would want to and thats fair enough but surely that desire would come from love and not "greed".
My system would be an incentive for the "powers that be" to sort it out and it would be temporary in the way you mean - I know there are people who are well meaning but I believe that in a sense the NHS has become a "token effort" which the powerful see as something they don't use. If they did I think both the resources and the determination shift would make it work.
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1. Abolish and make illegal all private education and health cover (and obviously obliterate religion from all state schools at the same time) - people who try and get around it by sending kids abroad or using foreign health service to be refused re-entry and be stripped of citizenship. I believe these two services will never "work" while the rich and powerful opt out of them.
2. Renationalise without compensation all public utilities including rail etc.
3. Execute the first 1000 people in line to the throne and confiscate all "long term" inherited wealth - eg Duke of Westminster's property.
4. Inheritance tax to be 100% with no exemption bracket - so that everybody starts off in life with the same opportunities.
5. Introduce a universal contraceptive into the water supply/food chain and supply the antidote under licence.
Wonderful ideals, totally impractical, if even fair. You expect people who work their arses off to provide the same opportunities to their children as someone who does the bare minimum?
Don't forget to tell the last one out to turn out the lights, because those remaining won't be able to afford it.
To turn yout point around why should waste of space kids get a lift in life from hard working parents?
If people's only motive in life is to leave a "stash" for the kids after death then I think thats sad - you should enjoy the fruit of your own work and hope that your kids can look after themselves. Inherited wealth propogates class, power and everthing else thats unfair in this country.
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Still the Pixies at the Mayfair circa 1990/1 for me like.
It was 89 iirc and is my number 1.
2. Ozzy Osbourne Mayfair 80
3. Manics Millenium
4. U2 MK bowl 85
5. Big Country Whitley Bay Ice Rink 86
6. Pixies Brixton 04
7 3 Colours Red Reading 99
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1. Abolish and make illegal all private education and health cover (and obviously obliterate religion from all state schools at the same time) - people who try and get around it by sending kids abroad or using foreign health service to be refused re-entry and be stripped of citizenship. I believe these two services will never "work" while the rich and powerful opt out of them.
2. Renationalise without compensation all public utilities including rail etc.
3. Execute the first 1000 people in line to the throne and confiscate all "long term" inherited wealth - eg Duke of Westminster's property.
4. Inheritance tax to be 100% with no exemption bracket - so that everybody starts off in life with the same opportunities.
5. Introduce a universal contraceptive into the water supply/food chain and supply the antidote under licence.
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On his "wanting me to fail" bit I'd just say that I want every player from every other club to fail.
I especially want Liverpool players to fail.
I especially want players who "love the club" but then always wanted to play for the scouse bastards to fail.
Sorry Craig you've got me.
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Supermac - Leicester
Saw that one - was canny like.
Theres a goal Pedro scored against Everton in the game where Bracewell got fucked that I think is the best I've seen. He sort of paused about 25 yards out and sarted knocking the ball from one foot to another then started to speed up the same action as he approached their defence - 2 defenders later the classic clipped finish followed. Unfortunately no cameras caught it.
The thing about the Pompey goal was I was right at the back so only just saw the first dummy before my view was obscured amongst cries of "what the fuck's he doing" etc etc. Only saw its true glory later on TV.
Also have a special spot for Liam's over the wall.
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Lets just wish the bloke well rather than arguing the toss over stuff we honestly don't know.
Of course - soz.
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"Sides" aside I didn't think anything Bob said was as bad as you're suggesting.
I'd put the need for supernatural fairy stories down to simple ignorance which was pretty widespread.
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I don't want to go all Germaine Greer but surely good drivers that they are they are still amateurs. Speeds like that should be F1 professionals territory.
Hope he makes it though.
F1 cars max out at about 210mph, or that seems to be the fastest they get to on the circuits. 280 is psycho airforce pilot speeds.
I just meant in terms of driving ability - I'm sure Schumacher could cope better than Hammond is all I'm saying - even if it wasn't driver error the ability to deal with a crash would make the difference surely?
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I don't want to go all Germaine Greer but surely good drivers that they are they are still amateurs. Speeds like that should be F1 professionals territory.
Hope he makes it though.
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Well, I think religion, at least partly, comes from explaining what science/ worldly knowledge cannot. E.g. a volcano is the wrath of God / the gods. I'm not sure that will ever go away as long as people ponder the meaning of life and so on.
I think there are two sides to religion - the sense of where did humans come from and who made the world and then the moral/philosophy side.
I think on the former its a dead duck - the actual who or what of the big bang may still be a mystery but everything since then is pretty much explained give or take. Having said that the view which my Mother for one subscribed to that her "god" created the universe 14 billion years ago then kept a benign eye on it is one that though I disagree with it, I can sort of respect.
This tends to be the side that frustrates me. Of course people who adhere to Genesis as an actual history are the ones that really get me. Taking the "big three" the idea that a God which created this vast universe and even this world would only care about and reveal himself to a small tribe in one corner of the world seems ludicrous - their subsequent spread is obviously down to politics rather that "righteousness". Looking back its obvious the world would be very different if Alexander hadn't died so young or if the Mongols hadn't turned back. This is the area where I tend to offend people by calling them "unintelligent" or "weak" as I honestly can't see why they can't recognise these obvious "truths".
From the moral side once again looking at history I can see how the carrot and stick of heaven and hell would have been needed in "primitive" times. Now though given a more modern sense of society I find the idea that people are taught to be good so as to get a reward to be distasteful at best. I don't accept that "morality" needs a religion - societies have developed where the two are not completely linked - certainly the development of western Europe in the last couple of centuries includes decent morals built on at the most an agnostic point of view. Here also it becomes clear why the religions are "losing ground" in educated countries because of their refusal to evolve - for example the vast majority of decent people now realise that homosexuality isn't an abomination but the dogma of the main men can't be changed easily - similarly on contraception. Those who vehemently refuse to "modernise" also tend to be the loudest which drives people away.
Given the fact that all of the things that God used to credit for like good luck and bad in terms of natural phenonema are now explained, and that the carrot and stick of heaven and hell are no longer needed imo to teach morals I don't see any necessary place for him moving into the future.
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What the fuck has the kid got for eyebrows?
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Show me "the truth" that God exists and I'll believe. I prefer reason.
once we die with them we'll see what happensAh Pascal's dilemma - If I'm right and death is death then you've lost nothing but if you're right then I've lost everything.
Only problem is your "specific" truth has to be the right one so your's is just as much a "gamble" as mine.
Mine is not a gamble, it is a firm belief and I have no problems dying with it.
You guys dont exactly live in a haven for islamic scholars do you? So im not surprised you havent met any.
Im not pulling out of this debate because you've shattered my belief misters, its because i am not disillusioned about my capabilites on the matter. I am 18 and i know my knowledge of religion and philosphy is not extensive enough for me to rage on about it in such a situatuon, yet. I suggest you go and sart this debate on an islamic board where you will expect to find serious answers.
I'd echo the comments about your damned niceness
but theres not much further to say - I like arguing about concrete issues like evolution/creationism which is related to a degree but arguing from a rational view against an irrational endemic belief can't last that long.All I can ultimately do is state my firm belief that if nobody was allowed to be taught any religion until adulthood the thing would be dead in a generation.
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Show me "the truth" that God exists and I'll believe. I prefer reason.
once we die with them we'll see what happensAh Pascal's dilemma - If I'm right and death is death then you've lost nothing but if you're right then I've lost everything.
Only problem is your "specific" truth has to be the right one so your's is just as much a "gamble" as mine.
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One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that Catholic dogma states that the Pope is infallible - he cannot make mistakes as he is "God's spokesman" on earth therefore an apology is in a way heretical.
There's a get-out clause:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5355758.stm
Btw, I declare myself infallible on this board now, just to let you know.
I read that today - it mentions the one thing that should absolutely scream at everybody on the planet that catholicism is ridiculous - the fact that a pope "pondered" on the assumption of Mary and decided it was true, despite no record of it anywhere, and it therefore being accepted as dogmatic fact.
Some good points today - on the Malcolm X thing I think it fits what I think about things like support for the royal family as well as religion - otherwise intelligent or strong charactered people have a blind spot on something irrational which defies logic - I suppose to be sef-critical "faith" in Newcastle United could be said to fit that - whats more likely - eternal life or us winning a trophy ever again?
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Interesting resources NJS. No doubt those statements in the Koran are the results of mistranslation from Arabic to English....
The truth is that if you objectively look at what the Bible (especially OT) and Koran say then it's hard to come up with any explanation for them other than they are the product of a more primitive, barbaric time and do not lend any support to a higher being existing. In fact, if God does exist, he must be one vain, twisted bastard. The suffering he allows to go on in the world is of course testament to this.
What always amazes me though is the sheer arrogance of religious people who believe that their choice or birthright is the "right" one, and by implication everyone else has backed the wrong horse. This was brilliantly satirisised by South Park once, iirc the Jehovah Witnesses were "right".
I'm not sure about the history of the Koran in terms of availability but if you read the OT its easy to see why the catholic church (and the rest of them) would be a lot happier if the printing press had never been invented, "peasants" had never learned to read and of course if it had been allowed to remain in Latin for ever.
Whats amazing is that people can read it now and still refer to a "loving" God.
I can see that in the past religion "made sense" - worshipping the sun or believing a God looked after your people and punished your enemies seemed pretty logical in the absence of much science.
Now that we know what a tiny backwater of an almost infinite univese we inhabit, how people can still fall for it astonishes me. In fact it doesn't - its the brainwashing of children thats the secret - ultimately the real evil behind it all imo.
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In fact, as the Holy books were not literally written by God, but were dreamed up by human beings often many years after the events they describe, how can they be anything but subjective?
I caught a bit of Tony Rbinson's program on C4 on Saturday about "End of world-ers" who are waiting for revelation to be played out - it was comforting to note that according to some American moron "evolutionists" would be the first ones sent to hell come the glorious day. I could save the entire human race but because I recognise the world is more than 6000 years old I'm damned to burn in hell for ever. So loving these theists.
Of course it confirmed what I already know - Revelation was written by someone off his tits on mushrooms.
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Where does the Quran say to kill the non-believers?? Its seems to be stressing the point that Allah is the one who will deal with them.
I'd also say that being killed by believers or the "wrath of Allah" doesn't actually matter if you're dead.
On the previous point about the "good" person that section on intolerance shows that disbelievers don't get a sniff of heaven is Islam.
I admit that I know more about Christianity (and its evil) than I do about Islam but I do wish followers of both creeds would be more honest about their holy books and stop trying to paint a picture of "niceness" which its all to easy to see beyond.
Some of my favourite sites:
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According to religion, both will lead you to heaven.
Nope - acceptance of the deity is a pre-requisite for all of them that I know of.
In fact protestants believe that faith alone is a free pass - catholics require "good works" as well.
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you have a holy book which specifically encourages believers to kill infidels
What the......where did you get that from?? Its says nothing of the sort. Only in self-defence.
The sad fact is that despite their noble ideals Islam and Christianity at a big picture level have brought nothing to the human race but misery and death.Thats what most people dont get. Its not Islam or Christianity that have bought the world to war, its exactly the opposite. Its people either forgetting, or completely altering the teachings of Islam and Christianity that has led to this stage. How many people on this thread have said 'I dont give a crap about religion'? Thats happening all over the world, people forgetting true religion or altering it to suit whatever they feel like at the time. Its not just happening to religion, while muslims and christians are forgetting what their religion tells them, ethics morals etc are disappearing gradually on the world level, no doubt about it.
On your second point its the usual "atheists have no morals" bollocks. As part of my interest in evolution/creationism debates I found out that there were MORE murders in the US before Darwin produced his "satanic" book - this was used to counter the argument that the "downfall" of religion had led to ethical decline.
Tell me who has better morals - someone like me who is "good" because I believe in the good of humanity as a whole or someone who is "good" because he desires a reward of paradise or avoidance of hell?
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I mean when was the last time you can ever remember any catholics, protestants, jews, buddhists, mormons, quakers, jedis...etc. etc. going around burning, torching and destroying things and demanding the death of people who have insulted them, not very likely is it?
To be fair and equal in my contempt the Hindus and Sikhs in India don't exactly have a perfect record in this respect.
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I don't give a shit what it "means" - people are defined by their actions.
Muslims worldwide hold to the "identity" of Islam - they speak of a brotherhood which sounds very noble until it becomes apparent that too many of them are fuckwits - then it becomes "but they are't real muslims" or other such bollocks. When the sectarian violence in Iraq really kicked off I read posts on the BBC from Muslims claiming it had to be the CIA/Mossad as "true" muslims wouldn't bomb mosques - get real.
Stop hiding behind "its just a few" and address the real issues - you have a holy book which specifically encourages believers to kill infidels (200 "though shalt not kills" do not negate a promise of paradise) - the bible has the same but they're arent anywhere near as many idiots who actually take it at its word.
The sad fact is that despite their noble ideals Islam and Christianity at a big picture level have brought nothing to the human race but misery and death.
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One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that Catholic dogma states that the Pope is infallible - he cannot make mistakes as he is "God's spokesman" on earth therefore an apology is in a way heretical.
I despise orgainzed religion but I don't agree it was deliberate - as I said earlier I think it was the mistake of an arrogant intellectual.
I'd also like to say that the next person who says "But Islam means peace" should be shot dead on the spot.
Faith Schools
in General Chat
Posted
Any teaching of young children is indoctrination by brainwashing - it should be banned completely. If your faith is so "right" then you should have the confidence that people as adults would choose it - as that is unlikely its never been allowed.
On the parental choice qustion I feel parents have too much choice because its a vote winner - why should someone who may use a schools services for as little as 5 years be able to influence the founding and establishment of facilities with a lifespan of 50 years in a field of "industry" they generally know nothing about?
As long as schools teach an agreed curriculum and maintain good standards (can of worms I know) then I think parents should have little or no influence.