Worth a read................

[Torres 0]

Does the success of English clubs show that football is in rude health?

Why are we asking this now? Who is involved? So is it the managers who make the difference? Sam Wallace asks The Big Questions on English Soccer

 

Why are we asking this now?

 

Unless you've been in a cave on the Isle of Man for the past 24 hours you will not have been able to avoid the fact that - for the first time in history - there are two English clubs, Manchester United and Chelsea, contesting the Champions League final in Moscow on 21 May. For those of you who can remember earlier than 1992 that's the European Cup final. The Big One. The trophy that every giant of football from Milan to Munich to Madrid wants.

 

Who is involved?

 

United and Chelsea have the biggest contingents of top English players of any of the clubs in the Premier League. In the blue corner will be JT, Lampsy, Coley, SWP, Ashley and Bridgey. In the red there will be Rio, Wazza, Scholesy, Hargreaves, Wes, Carrick and Red Nev. Come 21 May, the Luzhniki Stadium in Moscow will feel like a Premier League ground on a Saturday afternoon.

 

Haven't foreign players helped hugely?

 

There are plenty of them, too and the prevailing mood is that English football's pre-eminence at the moment is less to do with the Englishmen in the top teams and more to do with the incredible wealth lavished on some of the biggest stars in the world. Among others, Chelsea have Didier Drogba and Michael Ballack, both of them on upwards of €130,000 a week.

 

United have Cristiano Ronaldo, arguably the best player in the world. He earns €155,000 a week, and he's still only 23. Last summer, United spent the best part of €50m on transfer fees for Luis Anderson and Luis Nani who were both playing in Portugal.

 

If our football is so good, how come the England team is in such disarray?

 

Don't spoil the mood. But, yes, on 7 June, the European Championships - Euro 2008 - kick off without England. It's the first time they have not qualified for a major international tournament since the 1994 World Cup. It was a national embarrassment largely laid at the feet of the former manager Steve McClaren. In fact one of our most damaging defeats last year was to Russia in October at ... the Luzhniki Stadium.

 

Have English clubs dominated the European Cup before?

 

Yes, between 1977 and 1982 an English club won it every year. Back then it was more of an open tournament - only the champions from each domestic league qualified and football in general was less dominated by wealth. Nottingham Forest even won it twice (1979 and 1980) under Brian Clough. Liverpool won it three times in that period and even Aston Villa picked it up in 1982. The late Tony Barton was in charge of Villa that day, his next job was at Northampton Town.

 

So is it the managers who make the difference?

 

Not according to the Chelsea fans. Their manager is Avram Grant, an Israeli unknown outside his native country until he controversially succeeded Jose Mourinho in September. Grant is a close friend of Roman Abramovich, the Russian billionaire who has bankrolled Chelsea's success to the tune of €745m over the past five years. Chelsea are in their first Champions League final ever, and still the fans won't sing Grant's name. Most of them think the team is so good you could put the groundsman in charge. Although perhaps not the groundsmen who were involved in the brawl with United players last Saturday ... but that's another story.

 

So Abramovich has spent the money to make Chelsea contenders?

 

We're getting to the nub of it now. The English Premier League is the richest in the world. Chelsea have made losses totalling €492m over the past four years. United have debts of around €770m because they are mortgaged up the eyeballs by their American owners. But both benefit from the extraordinary television deals that the Premier League has done domestically and all over the world.

 

What are these clubs earning from television?

 

The Premier League deal in total is worth €3.4bn to the 20 clubs over three years from 2007 to 2010. That's before you take into consideration match-day revenue and merchandising. These clubs are raking it in and they spend it all on player wages and transfer fees. Look at Liverpool. They signed the Spanish striker Fernando Torres in the summer from Atletico Madrid for €34m. Everyone in Europe wanted Torres but he wanted to come to Liverpool. The Premier League is the place to be.

 

It hasn't always been like that?

 

No. In the late 1980s and the 1990s, Italy was the place to be for the best players in the world and English football was miles behind. British players like Paul Gascoigne, Ian Rush, David Platt and Paul Ince played in Italy. Gary Lineker and Mark Hughes went to Spain. In the late 1990s those top players who were past their best started gravitating towards the Premier League. Now, with the likes of Ronaldo and Torres, the Premiership is getting the best players in the world in their prime.

 

So shouldn't the Premier League's success be celebrated?

 

Funnily enough, the chief executive Richard Scudamore almost got run out of his job in February when he suggested adding an extra game to the 38-match season and playing it abroad, like a travelling roadshow for the foreign fans. English supporters hated the idea. In many respects the wealth and the big foreign stars make the average fan feel they know their team less intimately. Most worryingly, big clubs are importing young players from abroad, rather than develop English kids. It doesn't look good for the England national team, the success of which is the true yardstick for the health of English football.

 

So it's not so good after all?

 

And that's before you get to Moscow, with hotel prices inflated to €2,500-a-night, big queues for a visa and brutal policing tactics. Even so, we can't wait.

 

Are English clubs the best in Europe?

 

Yes...

 

* The have made a financial success of our league while Italy, for example, is beset by corruption, hooliganism and crumbling stadiums

* The best players want to be in England and anyway, once here they still play the frantic, fast-paced English style we love

* Look at the crowds - even the Football League is reporting record attendances

 

No...

 

* The Italians won the last World Cup in 2006; England did not even make the semi-finals, and haven't qualified for Euro 2008

* If the money stops coming, so will the top players - it's all about greed

* Clubs are being bought by wealthy foreign owners who don't care about the fans

 

-

[Tom 13895]

It reads like a G.C.S.E Geography article but it makes some very interesting points. However a few are flawed. The european Cup between 77-82 wasn't exactly the hardest tournament in the world.

 

And on the nationality factor England can't be blamed. For instance IIRC Inter Milan only have 2 or three Italian players, Barcelona only had 2 Spanish players starting against Manchester. They are trying to highlight flaws that exist elsewhere just because of English clubs success. The fact is the players that play for a franchise aren't always going to come from the same country.

 

If a Premier League club with an average budget tried to field 11 English players they would drop into the championship like a stone. Clubs rely on foreign players, plus many are nice to watch.

 

* The have made a financial success of our league while Italy, for example, is beset by corruption, hooliganism and crumbling stadiums

* The best players want to be in England and anyway, once here they still play the frantic, fast-paced English style we love

* Look at the crowds - even the Football League is reporting record attendances

 

I would probably say despite that the Italian fans are quality. My only problem with it is that FIFA/UEFA ignore the flaws, e.g the fighting & when an England fan abroad drops his can of coke on the floor he gets a batton to the face and there is a UEFA report favouring the policeman. However some fans deserve it, Liverpool fans in Istanbul & Athens acted like complete tools.

 

Respect to the football league. Clubs like Nottingham Forest and Leeds getting + 30k.

 

That's more than some premier league teams!

[Torres 0]

It reads like a G.C.S.E Geography article but it makes some very interesting points. However a few are flawed. The european Cup between 77-82 wasn't exactly the hardest tournament in the world.

 

And on the nationality factor England can't be blamed. For instance IIRC Inter Milan only have 2 or three Italian players, Barcelona only had 2 Spanish players starting against Manchester. They are trying to highlight flaws that exist elsewhere just because of English clubs success. The fact is the players that play for a franchise aren't always going to come from the same country.

 

If a Premier League club with an average budget tried to field 11 English players they would drop into the championship like a stone. Clubs rely on foreign players, plus many are nice to watch.

 

* The have made a financial success of our league while Italy, for example, is beset by corruption, hooliganism and crumbling stadiums

* The best players want to be in England and anyway, once here they still play the frantic, fast-paced English style we love

* Look at the crowds - even the Football League is reporting record attendances

 

I would probably say despite that the Italian fans are quality. My only problem with it is that FIFA/UEFA ignore the flaws, e.g the fighting & when an England fan abroad drops his can of coke on the floor he gets a batton to the face and their is a UEFA report favouring the policeman. However some fans deserve it, Liverpool fans in Istanbul & Athens acted like complete tools.

Respect to the football league. Clubs like Nottingham Forest and Leeds getting + 30k.

 

That's more than some premier league teams!

 

Some may have.........................but the vast majority were a credit to the club. We did ourselves proud in Istanlbul in the greatest final to date.

[Tom 13895]

It's not the ones that behave that get a mention though is it?

 

There was a few hundred spoiling it & you can't blame the newspapers this time.

[Tooj 17]

The european Cup between 77-82 wasn't exactly the hardest tournament in the world.

Was it not?

[Tom 13895]

The european Cup between 77-82 wasn't exactly the hardest tournament in the world.

Was it not?

 

Not as hard as it is now.

[Gemmill 35287]

The european Cup between 77-82 wasn't exactly the hardest tournament in the world.

Was it not?

 

He's guessing. He wasn't born.

[Torres 0]

The european Cup between 77-82 wasn't exactly the hardest tournament in the world.

Was it not?

 

That`s nonsense. It was a lot tougher as you only played champions. Mr Keith would hardly be an expert on that era.......................having not seen a game.

[Torres 0]

It's not the ones that behave that get a mention though is it?

 

There was a few hundred spoiling it & you can't blame the newspapers this time.

 

I was at both finals and know full well that istanbul was a trouble free night, and problems in Athens were exaggerated.

Funny how you guys always complain how the press treats you, yet when another club becomes the whipping boy you swallow it hook line and sinker.

[Isegrim 8919]

The european Cup between 77-82 wasn't exactly the hardest tournament in the world.

Was it not?

 

That`s nonsense. It was a lot tougher as you only played champions. Mr Keith would hardly be an expert on that era.......................having not seen a game.

Yeah, the champions of Albania, Luxemburg etc.

[Torres 0]

The european Cup between 77-82 wasn't exactly the hardest tournament in the world.

Was it not?

 

That`s nonsense. It was a lot tougher as you only played champions. Mr Keith would hardly be an expert on that era.......................having not seen a game.

Yeah, the champions of Albania, Luxemburg etc.

 

Not forgetting all the major ones of course...........

[Tom 13895]

Or the finalists...

 

Borussia Mönchengladbach,Club Brugge K.V,Malmö FF,Hamburger SV.

 

81-82 was slightly different, with Real Madrid & Bayern Munich taking up the finalist spots.

[Tooj 17]

Or the finalists...

 

Borussia Mönchengladbach,Club Brugge K.V,Malmö FF,Hamburger SV.

 

81-82 was slightly different, with Real Madrid & Bayern Munich taking up the finalist spots.

So what you're saying is that they have to be a big name for them to be a good team? How do you know those Madrid and Bayern teams were better than those mentioned above? You're just basing it on the name rather than the team.

[Tom 13895]

The european Cup between 77-82 wasn't exactly the hardest tournament in the world.

Was it not?

 

He's guessing. He wasn't born.

 

There were some big teams in it but the path to the final/teams you faced was actually quite similar to our fairs cup win.

[Tooj 17]

The european Cup between 77-82 wasn't exactly the hardest tournament in the world.

Was it not?

 

He's guessing. He wasn't born.

 

There were some big teams in it but the path to the final/teams you faced was actually quite similar to our fairs cup win.

Like how Forest and Liverpool played each other in the first round you mean?

[Tom 13895]

The european Cup between 77-82 wasn't exactly the hardest tournament in the world.

Was it not?

 

He's guessing. He wasn't born.

 

There were some big teams in it but the path to the final/teams you faced was actually quite similar to our fairs cup win.

Like how Forest and Liverpool played each other in the first round you mean?

 

or how we played Feyonoord?

[Tooj 17]

The european Cup between 77-82 wasn't exactly the hardest tournament in the world.

Was it not?

 

He's guessing. He wasn't born.

 

There were some big teams in it but the path to the final/teams you faced was actually quite similar to our fairs cup win.

Like how Forest and Liverpool played each other in the first round you mean?

 

or how we played Feyonoord?

Feyonoord?

[Isegrim 8919]

The european Cup between 77-82 wasn't exactly the hardest tournament in the world.

Was it not?

 

That`s nonsense. It was a lot tougher as you only played champions. Mr Keith would hardly be an expert on that era.......................having not seen a game.

Yeah, the champions of Albania, Luxemburg etc.

 

Not forgetting all the major ones of course...........

Well, the major ones are still competing in todays competition. Just those from the smaller nations who mostly got a tonking do not really participate anymore and got replaced by other bigger clubs from the better leagues. So to say the old European Cup was "a lot tougher" is just total nonsense.

[Tom 13895]

The european Cup between 77-82 wasn't exactly the hardest tournament in the world.

Was it not?

 

He's guessing. He wasn't born.

 

There were some big teams in it but the path to the final/teams you faced was actually quite similar to our fairs cup win.

Like how Forest and Liverpool played each other in the first round you mean?

 

or how we played Feyonoord?

Feyonoord?

 

 

typo you twat

[Tooj 17]

The european Cup between 77-82 wasn't exactly the hardest tournament in the world.

Was it not?

 

That`s nonsense. It was a lot tougher as you only played champions. Mr Keith would hardly be an expert on that era.......................having not seen a game.

Yeah, the champions of Albania, Luxemburg etc.

 

Not forgetting all the major ones of course...........

Well, the major ones are still competing in todays competition. Just those from the smaller nations who mostly got a tonking do not really participate anymore and got replaced by other bigger clubs from the better leagues. So to say the old European Cup was "a lot tougher" is just total nonsense.

The one thing you used to have back then but don't get now in the new format is you used to get some cracking unknown teams from behind the Iron Curtain, but now these clubs tend to sell all of these players on at an early age.

[Tooj 17]

Was '77 the final when Vogts was sent out to man mark Keegan and Kev won the crucial penalty by being brought down by Vogts?

[Tom 13895]

After looking it up : yes.

[Redshadow 0]

Or the finalists...

 

Borussia Mönchengladbach,Club Brugge K.V,Malmö FF,Hamburger SV.

 

81-82 was slightly different, with Real Madrid & Bayern Munich taking up the finalist spots.

So what you're saying is that they have to be a big name for them to be a good team? How do you know those Madrid and Bayern teams were better than those mentioned above? You're just basing it on the name rather than the team.

 

Those finalists you mention were big teams of their day.

 

Your fairs cup mate doesn't even count as a European trophy by UEFA. You came 10th to get in it. I'd say it was on the lines of the UEFA cup of today with the way the comp has been watered down.

 

The European Cup in those days was equally as hard as the Champions League is today in many ways.

The qualifiers now are against teams that you would have been lucky to get in the old cup winners cup and the group games of the CL can still hold one great team and 3 mediocre teams, just like the early rounds of the old EC. The knockout stages are the important part still because the league stages give clubs a second chance, much like our group games this season.

 

There were less matches to play in the EC but that was because it was only played by champions. All the big clubs were still there to be knocked out and anyone belittling the fact that Forest and Villa won it should remember that these teams were the best England had to offer, because they were the League Champions.

[Tom 13895]

It's not regarded as European competition by UEFA for the sole purpose that it was a one club per city tournament.

[Redshadow 0]

 

I would probably say despite that the Italian fans are quality. My only problem with it is that FIFA/UEFA ignore the flaws, e.g the fighting & when an England fan abroad drops his can of coke on the floor he gets a batton to the face and there is a UEFA report favouring the policeman. However some fans deserve it, Liverpool fans in Istanbul & Athens acted like complete tools.

 

Istanbul? There wasn't one arrest in Istanbul and Liverpool fans got praised to the hilt by UEFA, the press and the Turkish govvernment. They also received 'best fans' award in '01 after the UEFA cup final in Dortmund.

 

Athens had faults on both sides but yes, I accept we had some bell ends there. It's expected though when UEFA pick a stadium that is easy to walk in to without a ticket and the town officials have been saying for weeks beforehand come without tickets and enjoy the atmosphere.