Polarboy

I mean we could get into a semantic debate over what it means to be pragmatic in football terms, or we could just agree that it's a widely held opinion that Benitez is a cautious, sensible, safety first coach when it comes to his playing style, which was the salient point that was being made. In any case what I meant when I said pragmatic was that it's a sensible approach, as opposed to the almost idealistic approach that Klopp, Pep etc use, which is to overwhelm their opponents.

He's consistently played with a counter attacking, cautious, safety first approach. And if you like his more pragmatic approach that's fine, whatever floats your boat. I wasn't asking if you'd seen the entire discussion. I was referring specifically to what we had previously spoken about obviously. As for Rafa at Real I said he employed the same tactics he almost always does, as in a counter attacking style. I also made the very obvious point that because Real and Barca are so far ahead of almost all of the rest, perhaps even more so when Rafa was at Real, and Rafa literally had some of the best players on the planet, and one of the best players of all time in Ronaldo, he could've pretty much played any style and still scored hatful's against Getafe, Eibar etc. You've so far failed to counter this point. Here's a few articles to back up my point. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/real-madrid/11914123/Rafael-Benitez-under-fire-for-cowardly-style-at-Real-Madrid.html https://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/rafa-benitez-on-brink-of-a-revolt-as-five-players-confront-him-over-real-madrids-style-of-play-43094 https://www.the42.ie/5-reasons-rafa-benitez-sacked-real-madrid-2530995-Jan2016/

An actual response to what I said, instead of just being salty, would have been better. In fact just saying nothing would have been more advisable.

Stating your preference for one style of play over the other isn't really nitpicking, and that's basically all I was doing. It should be taken as read that either piss on Bruce, and take very large shits on him as well while they're at it.

As for it being difficult to instil discipline into big name players, that's hopefully the job a manager at our club will have to do. If modern players are put off by a counter attacking style of play, and would rather be in teams that play like Klopp, Pep's etc sides, then that's something the club with have to consider.

Do you really understand the logic of what you are arguing. When you are managing Real, have Ronaldo, Benzema, Modric, Kroos, Rodriquez etc, and are playing Eibar, Getafe, Levante etc, then yes even if you are playing a counter attacking style you will score a lot of goals. Indeed you will at times even score three or four against your rivals, but it's still a fundamentally cautious approach, which will pay massive dividends against very weak opposition such as there is in La Liga. No I'm not and you are again misunderstanding what I've written either intentionally or unintentionally. I haven't once said that Benitez couldn't be successful at the club again, or that he hasn't been successful with his style of play in the past. His success isn't deniable. I merely questioned if his way of playing is still relevant at the very top end of things, and stated my preference for attacking football. I don't know the answer to the question of how successful he would be if he had the resources to take on Klopp, Guardiola etc. And what I've been saying repeatedly is that Benitez's style of counter attacking play has never changed. He's not going to suddenly start playing attacking football. So I'm not really sure if you even know what point you are trying to make with regard to cutting ones cloth. Managers generally have a distinct football philosophy, and only change if it really calls for it in particular circumstances and matches. And how many times does it have to be said. Rafa didn't change the way he played at Real regardless of the riches he had round in the playing staff. He didn't say he wasn't in charge, he just said he didn't have total control like Pep. I think what he was trying to say was that he had input, but Levy had the final say on comings and goings if it made sense to his bottom line. Lets just say that Sissoko was Levy's idea https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11675/11751098/tottenham-boss-mauricio-pochettino-says-he-doesnt-have-final-say-on-transfers

Oh, and I hope the implied comparison to McClaren was mostly a joke, otherwise you need professional help.

If only we had evidence of Pochettino building a bottom six side like Southampton up from the bottom, oh wait we do. To say that Pochettino won't be able to initially cut his cloth accordingly, even though we'll be massively investing in players in any case, is the most asinine argument you've made yet.

And? He had massive backing at Valencia at the time if I recall correctly. And what he did at Liverpool was incredible no doubt. It's not as if I'm saying Rafa isn't on his level, what I'm saying is that I'd prefer Pochettino's playing style, and that just because Pochettino hasn't won a major honour yet, it doesn't mean he won't or is a lesser manager than Rafa when you factor in the age difference, and how close he was at Spurs despite being hampered by Levy. Here's a page on his net spend at Spurs https://www.footballfancast.com/premier-league/tottenham/spurs-fans-react-to-pochettino-net-spend-stats He literally had a higher net spend at Southampton. Only really Klopp can compete in terms of how clever he's been with his spending, and the subsequent success that has come.

He went toe to toe with almost one hand tied behind his back when you compare money spent on players and wages. And Rafa is 12 years older than Pochettino. If Pochettino still hasn't won anything while being at financially powerful clubs in 12 years, you'll have an argument.

It has started to go round in circles to be fair.

Again no I'm not. Pragmatism is always doing what you think will achieve your goal, in this case winning matches. Counter attacking is by definition staying compact and waiting for your opponent to make a mistake. An attacking style of play with lots of pressing brings bigger risks, but possible greater rewards as we've seen with Liverpool and Man City. Edit. I should say that pragmatism is doing what you think will achieve your goal in a sensible and cautious way.

No, one game in a season is not relevant when you are presumably comparing who is a better manager, that's completely fecking ludicrous. And as Alex said there was no pressure on us at all. There is always weird results at the end of the season like that.

You're not listening to what I'm saying. Rafa has never changed his counter attacking style of football regardless of the quality of players he's had at his disposal throughout his career. Counter attacking is a pragmatic style of play regardless of the quality of the players you have at your disposal. I personally would like to see the pressing, attacking style of someone like a Pochettino. If you like counter attacking football that's fair enough, but if I have the choice it's not for me. What we did at Man City could barely even be called counter attacking.

Care to expand instead of making an almost entirely pointless comment.

One game, yes because that's entirely relevant. For fuck sake.

We're clearly going to be one of the biggest spenders next transfer window, and Pochettino might even be able to make Joelinton into what passes for a footballer. But regardless of whether he does or not, he'll be buying a new striker or two without question, among plenty of other players, if indeed he gets the job. And to build a team, which Pochettino has done twice in the premier league, you have to start from somewhere. I don't see the logic in letting Rafa build a pragmatic side, and then have someone like Pochettino come in and completely change the style of play, and likely want different types of players that compliment that style. And again Pochettino got the Spurs job because of the great job he did at Southampton, and Espanyol before that., neither of who had a Harry Kane. To imply he just skated by at Spurs because he had Kane is nonsense.

As I said he has a style of play and tactics that don't really change regardless of whether he's even at Real. That you have amazing attacking players that will score hatful's against inferior opposition isn't in question. But if we are talking fantasy football here I want us to eventually be one of the top sides in Europe, and to use an attacking style ala Liverpool, Man City, Barca, Real etc. It should also be noted that the top players at Real weren't all that pleased with Rafa's tactics. If we want to sell a project to top players the playing style of the coach will be at least one of the considerations for them.

It's not an insult, it's a statement of fact. I'm not doubting Rafa's passion for the game, the man's clearly obsessed, but he is 60. The facts are that he will start to slow down in the next five to ten years, and the Newcastle job is a top to bottom rebuild. I'd just be more confident that Pochettino would be ready, willing and able to tear into the project over the long term. Again I wouldn't be unhappy if Rafa was given the job, or doubt that he'd do an extremely solid job of putting the foundations in place.

I'm not using pragmatism as a slur, and I didn't say that it can't win major honours, I just left a question mark beside it. And I left a question mark beside it because football moves on. The way to win a league now, is not the same as it was in the 90's or even early 2000's. I just personally prefer a more front footed football philosophy that includes a bit of possession play.

Mate you did a fair bit of searching for what is a very tepid criticism/concern in comparison to my recent comments. I almost wrote the same thing about his tenure at Spurs being hampered by Levy's penny pinching in both comments. It even states in that guardian article from earlier that he was told he'd have to do things on a budget when he was given the Spurs job, because of the new stadium build. The comment was also in the context of if we're going for the best, as in Allegri, Favre, Nagelsmann etc. So it was really a case of being hypercritical for the case of comparison to his elite level manager contemporaries.

Rafa has never changed his counter attacking style of football, even when he was at Real. In fact that was one of the reasons he lost that job as far as I remember. The players at Real weren't happy with his tactics. The difference is that when he's been at clubs with a lot of money and or great players, once they get to the attacking third the skill of those quality attacking players takes over. The question is can that counter attacking, pragmatic style still win you major honours in the era of Guardiola and Klopp. Edit. I should say that he hasn't fundamentally changed his football philosophy. I'm sure he's made tweaks here and there, and for specific games.

It wouldn't just be a pay-check to Pochettino either. He's wildly ambitious, and passionate about football in general. The pros of taking the job with us is that while we are far behind the top six, it won't take as long to catch up as it would have, given that FFP should be relaxed, player fees and wages should decrease somewhat, and we'll have much more cash than most clubs in normal circumstances, let alone in the aftermath of this pandemic. With that all said, depending on what sort of project is being sold to him, he may be in the position to completely create the club in his footballing image with almost total carte blance. That should be a very attractive prospect for him, and again not just the chance of a big pay-check.

Ossie Ardiles has said that Pochettino taking the Newcastle job is a firm possibility, and that he's been spoken to by officials from the new owners. https://www.football.london/tottenham-hotspur-fc/news/mauricio-pochettino-to-newcastle-confirmed-18301133

Rafa bought some great attacking players for Napoli, but they were still a pragmatic side on the whole. It was the same at Liverpool. Gerrard and Torres ripped up the league at certain points, but they still had that pragmatic base. Benitez has never once been thought of as an attack minded coach. Mostly though I'm more worried about it not working out a second time. I wouldn't be unhappy if Rafa was rehired to be clear, but my preference is obvious.