Park Life

I'll come out and say I am absolutely certain it was a plane, the same plane that was hijacked by fanatical islamic terrorists, the same plane that was tracked on radar and disappeared over the pentagon, the same plane terrified passengers made phone calls from to their loved ones, the same plane that was witnessed by dozens of eye witnesses flying low and hitting the pentagon, and the same plane whose fragments can clearly be seen in the penthouse. No hedging from me there, shame about the conspiracists. I'd love a link to the radar data. Be careful....

...sharp teeth as well.

It reinforces some of my conclusions about Parky tbf. You don't want to read anything really....All you seem to be interested in is pushing me into a corner...You big gay boy! I'm interested in a bit more information on the clandestine forces of darkness you are talking about. However, as even the CIA are unaware or unable to do anything about them, I can see how you and the internet loons () have a problem. In all serious though, can you indicate in the vaguest terms who and what "they" are, just in your opinion, rather than linking me to a site about scrap metal? ....there's plenty of time...I haven't really engaged with this thread yet you're right.

It reinforces some of my conclusions about Parky tbf. I think Parkie is playing quite a good devils advocate role myself. If only he were playing Devil's Advocate though! He's the craziest man on Earth Shan. Geet mass shan. ...tbf Gemma also has a point..

It reinforces some of my conclusions about Parky tbf. I think Parkie is playing quite a good devils advocate role myself. Meaning? Devil's advocate to what? One who argues against a cause or position, not as a committed opponent but simply for the sake of argument or to determine the validity of the cause or position. Aye.

Not really, I only understood it on a superficial level. It looked great and held the tension well, but I'm not sure what the fuck it was all 'about'. Not sure what was real and imagined by which charactersor who was good and bad. Why was the old woman wearing the kids mac? All that stuff. That's the best bit of films, working it out a bit more. Scary though, wasn't she? If you didn't try to work out a film afterwards then you could never enjoy any of David Lynch's films surely. I generally find they're great to look at but don't understand at least half of them while I'm watching. Apart from 'Wild at Heart'. That's David Lynch-lite though tbf. Class all the same. Yes Lynch lite. Nick Roeg - Performance and Man who fell to earth are my faves.

Going to see the Eastwood tonight.

It reinforces some of my conclusions about Parky tbf. You don't want to read anything really....All you seem to be interested in is pushing me into a corner...You big gay boy!

Luque is a lazy, shit, Spanish olive munching money grabber.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/official/fema.html Happy reading. Shielding Investigators From the Evidence According to FEMA, more than 350,000 tons of steel were extracted from Ground Zero and barged or trucked to salvage yards where it was cut up for recycling. Four salvage yards were contracted to process the steel. Hugo Nue Schnitzer at Fresh Kills (FK) Landfill, Staten Island, NJ Hugo Nue Schnitzer's Claremont (CM) Terminal in Jersey City, NJ Metal Management in Newark (NW), NJ Blanford and Co. in Keasbey (KB), NJ FEMA's BPAT, who wrote the WTC Building Performance Study, were not given access to Ground Zero. Apparently, they were not even allowed to collect steel samples from the salvage yards. According to Appendix D of the Study: Collection and storage of steel members from the WTC site was not part of the BPS Team efforts sponsored by FEMA and the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE). Fate of Some Steel Revealed Years Later The base of one of the Twin Towers' massive core columns stored in a hanger at JFK Airport is shown in the film Up From Zero. Given that the removal and recycling of World Trade Center seel continued over the objections of victims' families and others seeking a genuine investigation, revelations, years later, that some of Twin Towers' steel parts were preserved comes as something of a surprise. Many of the heaviest steel pieces from the Twin Towers are stored in an 80,000-square-foot hangar at John F. Kennedy International Airport. These include some of the base sections of the Towers' massive core columns and 13 of the 153 steel trees from the bases of the Towers' perimeter walls. 7 Some of these pieces are shown in the film Up From Zero. The hangar, which reportedly holds one five-hundredth of the "total debris field", is off-limits to the public. 8 Scott Huston, president of the Graystone Society, is attempting to obtain three of the steel trees for the National Iron & Steel Heritage Museum in Coatesville, PA. 9 "

Agreed nothing to do with the CIA. Infact it was as much a side bonus that the CIA sufferred so heavily afterwards. The CIA under Tenet were actually one of the most moderate forces that had the ear of Dubya and strongly pushed for action in Afghanistan rather than Iraq. For this they weren't forgiven............. Again, the mysterious dark forces at work, ones even more powerful than the most prominent counter terrorism organization on the planet. People so powerful they render the CIA impotent! Have you a single piece of evidence to suggest such an organization exists? If not, why not? ......if I did they wouldn't be that powerful now would they?

Agreed nothing to do with the CIA. Infact it was as much a side bonus that the CIA sufferred so heavily afterwards. The CIA under Tenet were actually one of the most moderate forces that had the ear of Dubya and strongly pushed for action in Afghanistan rather than Iraq. For this they weren't forgiven.............

I'm not defending the official story vigourously, I'm merely providing answers to the apparent questions you have about the story, and posing reasonable questions about the events you allude happened instead, in the absence of any positive evidence for it. This is what any rational person does when confronted with questions about their rational beliefs. I for don't believe the story because the White House told me, I believe it because it makes sense in the absence of any credible alternatives, and fits with my normal understaing of physics, logic, reason and humanity. The questions I have about your alternative versions of events are just as valid as yours about the official story, but for some reason you imply one set of questions carries more weight because they go against the 'official story' I'd say no one has the real "official story". Probably to embarrasing to let any of it out with all the fuck ups an all. You propose events as having but one obvious cause, continually using the absence of something as proof, without any direct evidence. The CIA didn't stop the terrorists so they must have known about them, rather than they just didn't know about them. The US attacked Iraq after the Al-Qaeda attacks so they must have been complicit in the attacks, rather than Bush seeing an fortuitous opportunity for some unfinished business. There is no evidence of a plane (which there is) so there must not have been a plane. Doubt is not proof. Ok one last time. 1 You have failed to pick up on whether i agree with the facts surrounding the main events. 2, Questioning whether these buildings were rigged in case of an attack and finding it a plausible possibility has nothing to do with the attacks, others may try to link it, I havent. WT7 remains a mystery though. 3, The position i have taken is that there is one crucial debate; did the US know an attack of some sorts was imminent and was there a failure of intelligence or was it allowed to happen? There is no proof that either is the case. You, in the absence of any other evidence want to believe the US. I just find the whole thing too much of a coincidence and have learned in the last 3-4 years that the people responsible for US foreign policy are deceitful, murderous cunts, whose religious views put them in the 'clinically insane' bracket. Forgive me my cynicism. I knew you accepted the hijackers theory, but took the WTC7 opinions as indication of acceptance of the demolition/insurance theory. My mistake. The CIA plot we've been over, and my points above still stand. You are using association with other world events and the absence of evidence to allude to a specific alternative event. This is by nature an extremely difficult position to argue against, so basic are the premises used. [i]There was NO CIA plot.[/i] Infact the aftermath so Tenet losing his job and the CIA downsized. They aren't in the habit of doing this to themselves. Do you accept that the kind of plot you allude to could never be proved no matter how much official documentation was released? Do you concede that it could have been carried out purely on a verbal basis? Not sure what this question means please clarify. Accepting these ponts, then we are back to ground already well covered here, namely the number of agents involved in the plot, and their motivations w.r.t. possible gains weighed against morality. This event could have been managed by half a dozen agents/ ex-cia/ special forces. Could six people keep aiding the hijackers a secret...? What do you think? On this last quote :"people responsible for ... foreign policy are deceitful, murderous cunts, whose religious views put them in the 'clinically insane' bracket. Forgive me my cynicism." I would argue this has been the case in part around the world for time immemorial. It is a viewpoint that could be used to see conspiracy in any government action. The truest sentence in this thread. Cheers.

The dont promote democracy in their own country never mind anywhere else Voting machines and voting lists Florida case in point.

Mainly that the security services had no real clue what was going on that day. Or so they maintain. What do you think it suggests then? Edited above.

Mainly that the security services had no real clue what was going on that day. Or so they maintain. .....Ok that was a bit naughty. I think the FBI certainly are on record to having bought to the attention of the CIA and NSA that there was something afoot months before the strike as they actually had a couple of the hijackers under surveillance...There certainly was a breakdown in the information chain here. Yet at the time the CIA was told 'from higher up' to take the heat of particularly sensitive Saudi nationals. I think it was a confused picture.........And certainly believe there was some failure to analyse information.

I can safely rule out Bush and his cohorts..They simply aren't mad enough or cynical enough (yes I know). Having read up on the two guys from Hamburg I think one of them was definately involved and the other one who has had 2 trials now for conspiracy to cause terrorism I personally think he was involved as well, but difficult to prove to what capacity as the Judges are having here... Out of the other hijackers originally implicated by the FBI - four are alive and well and living in different countries and iirc one is a pilot (and still is) for Quatar airways.. The picture is very mixed regarding the hijackers (for good reason) I'm still not sure the full passanger lists have not been released into the public domain, I could be wrong. It is fair to say the FBI probably out of panic released any old list of 'the usual suspects' to begin with and then refined it as they went, this caused a lot of confusion and indeed fuelled a lot of the left field conspiracy talk. Bottom line there were hijackers on 'real planes' (not lookalike airforce planes packed with fuel and special explosive as some say). The hijackers on real planes flew into the towers I have no problem with this. But I contend that they had 'help' form within the U.S. state apparatus (elements of NSA and old CIA), the kind of shady 'off budget' groups used in Central America and indeed 'Bay of Pigs'. These are often recruited ex-special ops guys recruited to 'manage' operaitions or lend logistical support...In essence Bush and Co were and still are 'at war' with elements within his own regime. Elements who want a very gung ho foreign policy and who also wanted to show Bush and the elements of the moderates their power. You see this kind of small cabal that aren't actually part of any official secret services limits the 'need to know' (so no need for the silence of dozens of people as some contend in threads such as these). The bits that are real: The planes that hit the towers. With hijackers on board. The bits I have doubts about: That both buildings and WT7 collapsed in the manner they did. I'm erring on.. The Pentagon strike and whether it was a plane or a missile. Till more footage is released (they have it) no-one can be certain). Flight 93 I used to think it was shot down...But am admittedly not sure now after my latest dabblings. Could you explain the bit in bold a bit further? The original list was wrong and wasn't intended to be de facto...FBI released it out of panic to show they were 'on the case'.

I can safely rule out Bush and his cohorts..They simply aren't mad enough or cynical enough (yes I know). Having read up on the two guys from Hamburg I think one of them was definately involved and the other one who has had 2 trials now for conspiracy to cause terrorism I personally think he was involved as well, but difficult to prove to what capacity as the Judges are having here... Out of the other hijackers originally implicated by the FBI - four are alive and well and living in different countries and iirc one is a pilot (and still is) for Quatar airways.. The picture is very mixed regarding the hijackers (for good reason) I'm still not sure the full passanger lists have not been released into the public domain, I could be wrong. It is fair to say the FBI probably out of panic released any old list of 'the usual suspects' to begin with and then refined it as they went, this caused a lot of confusion and indeed fuelled a lot of the left field conspiracy talk. Bottom line there were hijackers on 'real planes' (not lookalike airforce planes packed with fuel and special explosive as some say). The hijackers on real planes flew into the towers I have no problem with this. But I contend that they had 'help' form within the U.S. state apparatus (elements of NSA and old CIA), the kind of shady 'off budget' groups used in Central America and indeed 'Bay of Pigs'. These are often recruited ex-special ops guys recruited to 'manage' operaitions or lend logistical support...In essence Bush and Co were and still are 'at war' with elements within his own regime. Elements who want a very gung ho foreign policy and who also wanted to show Bush and the elements of the moderates their power. You see this kind of small cabal that aren't actually part of any official secret services limits the 'need to know' (so no need for the silence of dozens of people as some contend in threads such as these). The bits that are real: The planes that hit the towers. With hijackers on board. The bits I have doubts about: That both buildings and WT7 collapsed in the manner they did. I'm erring on.. The Pentagon strike and whether it was a plane or a missile. Till more footage is released (they have it) no-one can be certain). Flight 93 I used to think it was shot down...But am admittedly not sure now after my latest dabblings.

That's the daddy like. Just got a bottle last week. Lovely stuff.

Not necessarily not all missiles leave debris. There are some compound missiles which completely burn up. What's a compound missile? A missile made not of metal but a carbon compound. Laser guided can enter throu a window or ventilation shaft. Can carry a lot of explosive. Or a thermite charge. What is it propelled by? Rocket motors have large metal parts. Cruise missiles have turbine blades. Laser guidance implies non carbon elements that would survive a crash. Why would it need a thermite charge? A large amount of explosive leaves a chemical trace, and a fireball different to the one seen on the video stills in this thread. Not all missiles ar propelled by rockets. Laser guided doesnt always mean an on board laser. And can you give proof to the different effect to the one seen on the video? As with Parky earlier, I think the onus is on you to provide the proof for the crackpot theories here. What crackpot theories would these be. I have not espoused any. i have just said I don't trust the official version and given reasons why. They don't want to hear that....They just like saying.."Crackpot" and "looney"...Apart from SSH who has made some methodical arguments which are well put together...The rest in this thread have no understanding of the events, that is clear. Atta was at a strip club the night before drinking cocktails even though he had to fly through 2 airports to pick up his plane and as is shown on the airports on CCTV was so late he paid cash.....These are the muppets who co-ordinated the attack apparently?

How exactly did they make these crystal clear calls from mobiles on the plane, when recently the same airline felt the need to install new systems to make this possible? I notice you failed to respond to this question directed at you earlier. Shit, I've entered into this again Are you sure the new system isn't just to make it safe to make mobile calls rather than actually making it possible? Nothing in a plane ever works....Surely you know that.

What they need is a charity rock concert! To raise awareness

....so there is less hope we can kill a few more of the old codgers off..?

How exactly did they make these crystal clear calls from mobiles on the plane, when recently the same airline felt the need to install new systems to make this possible? I notice you failed to respond to this question directed at you earlier. Shit, I've entered into this again Good it gets a bit lonely on the ledge.