Guest alex Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 There seems to be a fair bit of confusion as to where Iranian and Iraqi territory begins and ends tbh. And I'd say the Yanks in particular pick and choose which international law violations they take exception to. Aye that's probably fairly true, and as I said before in the case of the 2004 issue it may have been that the Iranians believed they HAD crossed over (at least arguably). But that was within the water ways themselves, this current seizure was further out into open water. Not only are these waters not really changing (which is one of the big issues with the inner delta and river waters as the boundaries sometimes change from year to year, or even season to season, with shifting flows and sands etc. - which is partly why this boarder is SO disputed), but also the boats in question will be not only monitoring their own position in 2-3 ways, but their base ship (and possibly other craft and aircraft) would have been monitoring their position in 1-2 different ways as well. They'd have had to have set off back to their ship in entirely the wrong direction AND ignored their own navigation and checks from their command for a significant period of time to make it into Iranian waters. The timing of the “infringement” is also amazingly coincidental and handy for the Iranian regime. Aye but (while I'm in no way an apologist for the Iranian regime) they could have been spying there and it's not like I trust our military or government to tell us the truth if they were (and nor should they). I accept the Iranians are probably the ones in the wrong here though. Hope the lads are back home safely soon regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 I can't find owt on Google about the earlier 2004 incident that says anything about our lads actually being in the right place Bliar did say "we won't know until we get them back with their navigation equipment" but after that its very quiet.............................. Yep I only read about it directly in a tiny bit in late 2005 or it might even have been 2006, as they held on to the equipment for so long (I don't even think the majority of it was ever returned). Although there have been a few comments about that issue made to do with the current situation. But it is very true that mud sticks, and as in 2004 all they have to do is make a big noise and then by the time the truth comes out it's completely irrelevant and no one is interested in it and well.... job done really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt 0 Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 What would they be spying in open waters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34460 Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 What would they be spying in open waters? ....something beginning wiiiiiiiiith......."S"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 Aye but (while I'm in no way an apologist for the Iranian regime) they could have been spying there and it's not like I trust our military or government to tell us the truth if they were (and nor should they). I accept the Iranians are probably the ones in the wrong here though. Hope the lads are back home safely soon regardless. True, but in all honesty what could they have been spying on (apart from thier tasked mission to monitor shipping) that far out in small boats that couldn't have been montiored much more closely with other methods? I can't think of anything tbh and there's next to nothing you could do on a small boat that couldn't be done better from futher way by something else, short of actual physical inspection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 What would they be spying in open waters? Hypothetically, if they were on a spying mission, I'm guessing they would need some method of transport to where that spying would take place. This could involve travelling in 'open waters' on a boat, unless they can now beam them to places like they do on Star Trek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 There seems to be a fair bit of confusion as to where Iranian and Iraqi territory begins and ends tbh. And I'd say the Yanks in particular pick and choose which international law violations they take exception to. Aye that's probably fairly true, and as I said before in the case of the 2004 issue it may have been that the Iranians believed they HAD crossed over (at least arguably). But that was within the water ways themselves, this current seizure was further out into open water. Not only are these waters not really changing (which is one of the big issues with the inner delta and river waters as the boundaries sometimes change from year to year, or even season to season, with shifting flows and sands etc. - which is partly why this boarder is SO disputed), but also the boats in question will be not only monitoring their own position in 2-3 ways, but their base ship (and possibly other craft and aircraft) would have been monitoring their position in 1-2 different ways as well. They'd have had to have set off back to their ship in entirely the wrong direction AND ignored their own navigation and checks from their command for a significant period of time to make it into Iranian waters. The timing of the “infringement” is also amazingly coincidental and handy for the Iranian regime. Aye but (while I'm in no way an apologist for the Iranian regime) they could have been spying there and it's not like I trust our military or government to tell us the truth if they were (and nor should they). I accept the Iranians are probably the ones in the wrong here though. Hope the lads are back home safely soon regardless. In all reality there is a chance even if it is a small one that they were in Iranian waters or close and they 'might' have been spying (no one will ever know)..The one fact is that the Iraninan Govt is very jumpy atm with all the continued talk of sanctions and plans of surgical strikes or whatever. Finally the soloution will be a diplomatic one and I hope our lads get back safely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 Aye but (while I'm in no way an apologist for the Iranian regime) they could have been spying there and it's not like I trust our military or government to tell us the truth if they were (and nor should they). I accept the Iranians are probably the ones in the wrong here though. Hope the lads are back home safely soon regardless. True, but in all honesty what could they have been spying on (apart from thier tasked mission to monitor shipping) that far out in small boats that couldn't have been montiored much more closely with other methods? I can't think of anything tbh and there's next to nothing you could do on a small boat that couldn't be done better from futher way by something else, short of actual physical inspection. I was just being hypothetical tbh, it could have been a secret mission or whatever. I don't pretend to know much about this sort of thing tbh. My main point was we don't really know what they were up to and only have the official version of events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 What would they be spying in open waters? This is the area where Iran keeps its high speed patrol boats armed with the latest anti-shipping 'Silkworm missiles' from China. One is enough to cripple an aircraft carrier or sink most military ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 Aye but (while I'm in no way an apologist for the Iranian regime) they could have been spying there and it's not like I trust our military or government to tell us the truth if they were (and nor should they). I accept the Iranians are probably the ones in the wrong here though. Hope the lads are back home safely soon regardless. True, but in all honesty what could they have been spying on (apart from thier tasked mission to monitor shipping) that far out in small boats that couldn't have been montiored much more closely with other methods? I can't think of anything tbh and there's next to nothing you could do on a small boat that couldn't be done better from futher way by something else, short of actual physical inspection. I was just being hypothetical tbh, it could have been a secret mission or whatever. I don't pretend to know much about this sort of thing tbh. My main point was we don't really know what they were up to and only have the official version of events. Yeah true, but these are routine partols that go on day in day out and have done for years now (of course that would be ideal cover, but still I can't think of anything clandestine for which you'd need that cover, that couldn't be done better and with less risk with other sources). The only real difference now is that Iran probably could do with a few more cards in its hand at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 I've just said that wasn't even my main point tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ketsbaia 0 Posted March 27, 2007 Author Share Posted March 27, 2007 Bliar seems certain we were in Iraqi waters and is threatening to release the exact details of where our boys were when they were seized if we don't get them released soon. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6498611.stm Obvious attempt to try and put more pressure on the Iranian's from the international community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 "The only real difference now is that Iran probably could do with a few more cards in its hand at the moment." agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 13846 Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 We are all going to die Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 We are all going to die they don' thave the bomb yet so its a good chance to show just what the advantages of spending £ 23 billion on Trident are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 13846 Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 We are all going to die they don' thave the bomb yet so its a good chance to show just what the advantages of spending £ 23 billion on Trident are I know but in the end though. Maybe of old age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3205 Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 Something is going to kick off cos the Argies are making noises about the falklands again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 (edited) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6501555.stm Huge shock. or http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/6502805.stm For a more detailed view (I love the way the 1st Iranian claimed postion is STILL within Iraqi waters and once the UK point this out they move it massively within their own waters - but the scary thing is a lot of people still BELIEVE this comical attempt at deception ) Edited March 28, 2007 by Fop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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