Are you religious?

[tooner 243]

Christened Church of England, but not remotely religious, I believe in science.

 

Don't recall the last time I was in a church. Last wedding I went to was a registry office do and the last funeral was a non-religious humanist ceremony at a crem.

I do think that most of the wars and conflicts of the last century have been caused at least in part by religion.

I don't think that bears close analysis tbh. WWI/II, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War etc?

Didn't persecution of the jews play a part in WW2 then?

It wasn't a cause of the conflict.

 

 

agreed it was the persecution of everyone....those naziis were equal opportunity persecutors

[JawD 31]

Basically, if there is a God, why does he allow such suffering to happen? He's either helpless or malevolent. Or doesn't exist. I tend to go with the latter.

 

and yet man could wipe out the most of the worlds suffering. If man looked at itself as one being, one thing, it could share wealth, make everyone equal, forget about personal gain or satisfaction and help those is need. Of course, there is as much chance of seeing a God than this actually happening. but, fact remains, why would a God help if we cannot help ourself? Mind, Im thinking on the grander scale here. Wars, starvation etc man has a hand in. a tsunami that wipes out thousands is a different arguement Many might argue that mans constant neglect and misuse of life brings this on himself.

God, supposedly, created man in his own image. I don't believe in God anyway though.

 

But, due to that bitch Eve, we chose to have our eyes opened and eat the apple. Still, I like apples and I like the freewill it brought. Aledgedly.

[The Fish 9027]

Basically, if there is a God, why does he allow such suffering to happen? He's either helpless or malevolent. Or doesn't exist. I tend to go with the latter.

 

and yet man could wipe out the most of the worlds suffering. If man looked at itself as one being, one thing, it could share wealth, make everyone equal, forget about personal gain or satisfaction and help those is need. Of course, there is as much chance of seeing a God than this actually happening. but, fact remains, why would a God help if we cannot help ourself? Mind, Im thinking on the grander scale here. Wars, starvation etc man has a hand in. a tsunami that wipes out thousands is a different arguement Many might argue that mans constant neglect and misuse of life brings this on himself.

You're assuming that the best thing for Man is for us to help all in the tribe. Yet we see in nature that the weak are assisted to an extent, but then the tribe/herd/pack must continue, with or without them.

 

We are an animal, an incredibly complex and varied animal, but an animal none-the-less. What seems to work in Nature is survival of the fittest (I'm only using that term because of it's ease), surely if Man were to achieve excellence we should follow the same model?

 

Elite Super Devil's Advocate Team Strike Force HOooooooooooo!

[Guest alex]

Basically, if there is a God, why does he allow such suffering to happen? He's either helpless or malevolent. Or doesn't exist. I tend to go with the latter.

 

and yet man could wipe out the most of the worlds suffering. If man looked at itself as one being, one thing, it could share wealth, make everyone equal, forget about personal gain or satisfaction and help those is need. Of course, there is as much chance of seeing a God than this actually happening. but, fact remains, why would a God help if we cannot help ourself? Mind, Im thinking on the grander scale here. Wars, starvation etc man has a hand in. a tsunami that wipes out thousands is a different arguement Many might argue that mans constant neglect and misuse of life brings this on himself.

God, supposedly, created man in his own image. I don't believe in God anyway though.

 

But, due to that bitch Eve, we chose to have our eyes opened and eat the apple. Still, I like apples and I like the freewill it brought. Aledgedly.

I'd rather get back to the idea of only humanity being able to save itself. Not God, no Jesus or any other mumbo jumbo. It's just lazy thinking imo. Religion that is.

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

Christened Church of England, but not remotely religious, I believe in science.

 

Don't recall the last time I was in a church. Last wedding I went to was a registry office do and the last funeral was a non-religious humanist ceremony at a crem.

I do think that most of the wars and conflicts of the last century have been caused at least in part by religion.

I don't think that bears close analysis tbh. WWI/II, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War etc?

Didn't persecution of the jews play a part in WW2 then?

It wasn't a cause of the conflict.

The Balkan conflict, the Northern Ireland troubles, the current 'war on terror' in Iraq and Afghanistan, the continuing conflict between Israel and its arab neighbours, the many religious massacres and blowing up of places of worship in India...

[Guest alex]

Christened Church of England, but not remotely religious, I believe in science.

 

Don't recall the last time I was in a church. Last wedding I went to was a registry office do and the last funeral was a non-religious humanist ceremony at a crem.

I do think that most of the wars and conflicts of the last century have been caused at least in part by religion.

I don't think that bears close analysis tbh. WWI/II, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War etc?

Didn't persecution of the jews play a part in WW2 then?

It wasn't a cause of the conflict.

 

 

agreed it was the persecution of everyone....those naziis were equal opportunity persecutors

That wasn't a cause of the war either. Unless you class invasion of other countires as persecution. Which I suppose it is. No one entered the war to help people being persecuted in Germany though, as far as I know.

[Tom 13883]

I thought Germany rearming itself and invading Poland was the main cause of the war?

 

Which is why nothing happened for about 6 months.

[Guest alex]

Christened Church of England, but not remotely religious, I believe in science.

 

Don't recall the last time I was in a church. Last wedding I went to was a registry office do and the last funeral was a non-religious humanist ceremony at a crem.

I do think that most of the wars and conflicts of the last century have been caused at least in part by religion.

I don't think that bears close analysis tbh. WWI/II, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War etc?

Didn't persecution of the jews play a part in WW2 then?

It wasn't a cause of the conflict.

The Balkan conflict, the Northern Ireland troubles, the current 'war on terror' in Iraq and Afghanistan, the continuing conflict between Israel and its arab neighbours, the many religious massacres and blowing up of places of worship in India...

I didn't say none of them were caused by it in the last 100 years. Most of the major wars had nothing to do with it though (cause-wise). You were arguing most were caused by religion but I don't think they were. Certainly not when you measure it in terms of conflicts and how many people were killed in them. I no fan of religion but I don't think you can blame it for most of the deaths caused by wars of the last 100 years. They were much more about contemporary 'secular' issues.

[Guest alex]

I thought Germany rearming itself and invading Poland was the main cause of the war?

 

Which is why nothing happened for about 6 months.

The invasion of Poland was the final straw that drew us into the war. The main cause of Germany basically spoiling for a fight was the rise of Nazism which in turn was borne out of the economic situation which came about because the terms of the Treaty of Versailles were so harsh on Germany and basically bankrupt the country. The Great Depression following the Wall St. Crash exacerbated the situation.

[JawD 31]

Basically, if there is a God, why does he allow such suffering to happen? He's either helpless or malevolent. Or doesn't exist. I tend to go with the latter.

 

and yet man could wipe out the most of the worlds suffering. If man looked at itself as one being, one thing, it could share wealth, make everyone equal, forget about personal gain or satisfaction and help those is need. Of course, there is as much chance of seeing a God than this actually happening. but, fact remains, why would a God help if we cannot help ourself? Mind, Im thinking on the grander scale here. Wars, starvation etc man has a hand in. a tsunami that wipes out thousands is a different arguement Many might argue that mans constant neglect and misuse of life brings this on himself.

God, supposedly, created man in his own image. I don't believe in God anyway though.

 

But, due to that bitch Eve, we chose to have our eyes opened and eat the apple. Still, I like apples and I like the freewill it brought. Aledgedly.

I'd rather get back to the idea of only humanity being able to save itself. Not God, no Jesus or any other mumbo jumbo. It's just lazy thinking imo. Religion that is.

 

Well, I agree. As I said at the start, I dont think any God can influence day to day things, only bring comfort or help someone deal with something in their own mind. But, my point was more to why doesnt God (any God) stop suffering. If there was a God and he had such power, it would be a bit rich us asking when we do fuck all about it ourselves.

[Guest alex]

Basically, if there is a God, why does he allow such suffering to happen? He's either helpless or malevolent. Or doesn't exist. I tend to go with the latter.

 

and yet man could wipe out the most of the worlds suffering. If man looked at itself as one being, one thing, it could share wealth, make everyone equal, forget about personal gain or satisfaction and help those is need. Of course, there is as much chance of seeing a God than this actually happening. but, fact remains, why would a God help if we cannot help ourself? Mind, Im thinking on the grander scale here. Wars, starvation etc man has a hand in. a tsunami that wipes out thousands is a different arguement Many might argue that mans constant neglect and misuse of life brings this on himself.

God, supposedly, created man in his own image. I don't believe in God anyway though.

 

But, due to that bitch Eve, we chose to have our eyes opened and eat the apple. Still, I like apples and I like the freewill it brought. Aledgedly.

I'd rather get back to the idea of only humanity being able to save itself. Not God, no Jesus or any other mumbo jumbo. It's just lazy thinking imo. Religion that is.

 

Well, I agree. As I said at the start, I dont think any God can influence day to day things, only bring comfort or help someone deal with something in their own mind. But, my point was more to why doesnt God (any God) stop suffering. If there was a God and he had such power, it would be a bit rich us asking when we do fuck all about it ourselves.

I think that's the problem with organised religion though. It propagates the idea that there is an omniscient, omnipotent being which, imo, allows people to negate responsibilty - i.e. it's 'God's will'.

Edited February 12, 2009 by alex

[Renton 17848]

If man looked at itself as one being, one thing, it could share wealth, make everyone equal, forget about personal gain or satisfaction and help those is need.

 

Imagine all the peeeoople.....

 

You seem to be describing some form of communism there, which is almost the antithesis of any orthodox religion ironically enough.

 

Btw way, isn't it Charles Darwin's 200th birthday today (looking at Google). Happy Birthday Charles, one of the greatest Englishmen without doubt in my eyes.

[The Fish 9027]

It's almost as if it has been used as an excuse to commit acts of greed, negligence, intolerance and sadism for centuries....

[Renton 17848]

Basically, if there is a God, why does he allow such suffering to happen? He's either helpless or malevolent. Or doesn't exist. I tend to go with the latter.

 

and yet man could wipe out the most of the worlds suffering. If man looked at itself as one being, one thing, it could share wealth, make everyone equal, forget about personal gain or satisfaction and help those is need. Of course, there is as much chance of seeing a God than this actually happening. but, fact remains, why would a God help if we cannot help ourself? Mind, Im thinking on the grander scale here. Wars, starvation etc man has a hand in. a tsunami that wipes out thousands is a different arguement Many might argue that mans constant neglect and misuse of life brings this on himself.

God, supposedly, created man in his own image. I don't believe in God anyway though.

 

But, due to that bitch Eve, we chose to have our eyes opened and eat the apple. Still, I like apples and I like the freewill it brought. Aledgedly.

I'd rather get back to the idea of only humanity being able to save itself. Not God, no Jesus or any other mumbo jumbo. It's just lazy thinking imo. Religion that is.

 

Well, I agree. As I said at the start, I dont think any God can influence day to day things, only bring comfort or help someone deal with something in their own mind. But, my point was more to why doesnt God (any God) stop suffering. If there was a God and he had such power, it would be a bit rich us asking when we do fuck all about it ourselves.

I think that's the problem with organised religion though. It propagates the idea that there is an omniscient, omnipotent being which, imo, allows people to negate responsibilty - i.e. it's 'God's will'.

 

Especially the salvationist aspect of christianity. I have been assured by a christian friend I will burn in hell for all eternity because of my beliefs (cheers God), but Hitler would have been saved if he chose to believe on his deathbed. Canny.

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

Btw way, isn't it Charles Darwin's 200th birthday today (looking at Google). Happy Birthday Charles, one of the greatest Englishmen without doubt in my eyes.

Agreed. Science>Religion

[Guest alex]

Basically, if there is a God, why does he allow such suffering to happen? He's either helpless or malevolent. Or doesn't exist. I tend to go with the latter.

 

and yet man could wipe out the most of the worlds suffering. If man looked at itself as one being, one thing, it could share wealth, make everyone equal, forget about personal gain or satisfaction and help those is need. Of course, there is as much chance of seeing a God than this actually happening. but, fact remains, why would a God help if we cannot help ourself? Mind, Im thinking on the grander scale here. Wars, starvation etc man has a hand in. a tsunami that wipes out thousands is a different arguement Many might argue that mans constant neglect and misuse of life brings this on himself.

God, supposedly, created man in his own image. I don't believe in God anyway though.

 

But, due to that bitch Eve, we chose to have our eyes opened and eat the apple. Still, I like apples and I like the freewill it brought. Aledgedly.

I'd rather get back to the idea of only humanity being able to save itself. Not God, no Jesus or any other mumbo jumbo. It's just lazy thinking imo. Religion that is.

 

Well, I agree. As I said at the start, I dont think any God can influence day to day things, only bring comfort or help someone deal with something in their own mind. But, my point was more to why doesnt God (any God) stop suffering. If there was a God and he had such power, it would be a bit rich us asking when we do fuck all about it ourselves.

I think that's the problem with organised religion though. It propagates the idea that there is an omniscient, omnipotent being which, imo, allows people to negate responsibilty - i.e. it's 'God's will'.

 

Especially the salvationist aspect of christianity. I have been assured by a christian friend I will burn in hell for all eternity because of my beliefs (cheers God), but Hitler would have been saved if he chose to believe on his deathbed. Canny.

As though there's an afterlife anyway I can't believe that for a minute. Obviously no one knows but it's blatantly another tool for controlling people imo.

[Guest Stevie]

Just a quick note Stevie its either Shiite Muslim or Shia Muslim not Shite.

I've amended the spelling.

[Neville Neville Neville 0]

Basically, if there is a God, why does he allow such suffering to happen? He's either helpless or malevolent. Or doesn't exist. I tend to go with the latter.

 

and yet man could wipe out the most of the worlds suffering. If man looked at itself as one being, one thing, it could share wealth, make everyone equal, forget about personal gain or satisfaction and help those is need. Of course, there is as much chance of seeing a God than this actually happening. but, fact remains, why would a God help if we cannot help ourself? Mind, Im thinking on the grander scale here. Wars, starvation etc man has a hand in. a tsunami that wipes out thousands is a different arguement Many might argue that mans constant neglect and misuse of life brings this on himself.

God, supposedly, created man in his own image. I don't believe in God anyway though.

 

But, due to that bitch Eve, we chose to have our eyes opened and eat the apple. Still, I like apples and I like the freewill it brought. Aledgedly.

I'd rather get back to the idea of only humanity being able to save itself. Not God, no Jesus or any other mumbo jumbo. It's just lazy thinking imo. Religion that is.

 

Well, I agree. As I said at the start, I dont think any God can influence day to day things, only bring comfort or help someone deal with something in their own mind. But, my point was more to why doesnt God (any God) stop suffering. If there was a God and he had such power, it would be a bit rich us asking when we do fuck all about it ourselves.

I think that's the problem with organised religion though. It propagates the idea that there is an omniscient, omnipotent being which, imo, allows people to negate responsibilty - i.e. it's 'God's will'.

 

Especially the salvationist aspect of christianity. I have been assured by a christian friend I will burn in hell for all eternity because of my beliefs (cheers God), but Hitler would have been saved if he chose to believe on his deathbed. Canny.

 

One of the arguments I have used when discussing with my family is:

 

If "God" exists and I was "God," surely I would be more impressed with the person who didn't believe in me but lived a good life, doing good things, for the sake of doing good things rather than the person who lives their life with the end goal of getting 70 virgins in heaven/ all your desires in paradise for eternity / come back reincarnated as something better (delete as per religious beliefs, and I'm deliberately being slightly silly).

 

And, if God would prefer to bestow his praise on the latter individual whose good actions were (in some way) due to their own personal later gain (far outweighing the sacrifice they are making on this world/this life), then He's a bit rubbish really, and not deserving of praise

 

Non??

[Guest alex]

I don't think that many people who are 'religious' actually know much about the religion they're affiliated to tbh.

[Neville Neville Neville 0]

Also, if there is a God, I'd love for him to sit down and explain Newcastle United Football Club to me.... tbh

That's surely manifest, undeniable proof that He doesn't exist

[Renton 17848]

Basically, if there is a God, why does he allow such suffering to happen? He's either helpless or malevolent. Or doesn't exist. I tend to go with the latter.

 

and yet man could wipe out the most of the worlds suffering. If man looked at itself as one being, one thing, it could share wealth, make everyone equal, forget about personal gain or satisfaction and help those is need. Of course, there is as much chance of seeing a God than this actually happening. but, fact remains, why would a God help if we cannot help ourself? Mind, Im thinking on the grander scale here. Wars, starvation etc man has a hand in. a tsunami that wipes out thousands is a different arguement Many might argue that mans constant neglect and misuse of life brings this on himself.

God, supposedly, created man in his own image. I don't believe in God anyway though.

 

But, due to that bitch Eve, we chose to have our eyes opened and eat the apple. Still, I like apples and I like the freewill it brought. Aledgedly.

I'd rather get back to the idea of only humanity being able to save itself. Not God, no Jesus or any other mumbo jumbo. It's just lazy thinking imo. Religion that is.

 

Well, I agree. As I said at the start, I dont think any God can influence day to day things, only bring comfort or help someone deal with something in their own mind. But, my point was more to why doesnt God (any God) stop suffering. If there was a God and he had such power, it would be a bit rich us asking when we do fuck all about it ourselves.

I think that's the problem with organised religion though. It propagates the idea that there is an omniscient, omnipotent being which, imo, allows people to negate responsibilty - i.e. it's 'God's will'.

 

Especially the salvationist aspect of christianity. I have been assured by a christian friend I will burn in hell for all eternity because of my beliefs (cheers God), but Hitler would have been saved if he chose to believe on his deathbed. Canny.

As though there's an afterlife anyway I can't believe that for a minute. Obviously no one knows but it's blatantly another tool for controlling people imo.

 

I'm confident enough about the likelihood of there being an afterlife (a heaven or hell type one) to tell God he can shove Pascal's wager up his arse. Sideways.

[tooner 243]

Christened Church of England, but not remotely religious, I believe in science.

 

Don't recall the last time I was in a church. Last wedding I went to was a registry office do and the last funeral was a non-religious humanist ceremony at a crem.

I do think that most of the wars and conflicts of the last century have been caused at least in part by religion.

I don't think that bears close analysis tbh. WWI/II, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War etc?

Didn't persecution of the jews play a part in WW2 then?

It wasn't a cause of the conflict.

 

 

agreed it was the persecution of everyone....those naziis were equal opportunity persecutors

That wasn't a cause of the war either. Unless you class invasion of other countires as persecution. Which I suppose it is. No one entered the war to help people being persecuted in Germany though, as far as I know.

 

Semantics really, while you are pointing out the actual events which caused the second world war, I read DKN's post as pointing out the persecution of the jews based on their religion by the nazis.......who (by whatever actual means) started the war......to which I was trying to point out that they persecuted everyone that didn't accept the party line......hmmmm reminds me of W's state of the union address post 9/11

[Guest alex]

Also, if there is a God, I'd love for him to sit down and explain Newcastle United Football Club to me.... tbh

That's surely manifest, undeniable proof that He doesn't exist

I know you're jesting but it sort of brings up another thing. It bothers me that so many people worry about something that doesn't either exist or that they have no control over. It would be a much better world if people concentrated on stuff they can actually influence and improve the world / make it a more pleasant place. Who was it said people should worship people?

[Guest alex]

Christened Church of England, but not remotely religious, I believe in science.

 

Don't recall the last time I was in a church. Last wedding I went to was a registry office do and the last funeral was a non-religious humanist ceremony at a crem.

I do think that most of the wars and conflicts of the last century have been caused at least in part by religion.

I don't think that bears close analysis tbh. WWI/II, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War etc?

Didn't persecution of the jews play a part in WW2 then?

It wasn't a cause of the conflict.

 

 

agreed it was the persecution of everyone....those naziis were equal opportunity persecutors

That wasn't a cause of the war either. Unless you class invasion of other countires as persecution. Which I suppose it is. No one entered the war to help people being persecuted in Germany though, as far as I know.

 

Semantics really, while you are pointing out the actual events which caused the second world war, I read DKN's post as pointing out the persecution of the jews based on their religion by the nazis.......who (by whatever actual means) started the war......to which I was trying to point out that they persecuted everyone that didn't accept the party line......hmmmm reminds me of W's state of the union address post 9/11

It didn't though. Which is my point.

[Neville Neville Neville 0]

Also, if there is a God, I'd love for him to sit down and explain Newcastle United Football Club to me.... tbh

That's surely manifest, undeniable proof that He doesn't exist

I know you're jesting but it sort of brings up another thing. It bothers me that so many people worry about something that doesn't either exist or that they have no control over. It would be a much better world if people concentrated on stuff they can actually influence and improve the world / make it a more pleasant place. Who was it said people should worship people?

 

Come join the Humanist revolution. First we'll kill the Jews, then the Muslims, then the Pope, and then we'll force the remaining world to convert to Humanism, build massive "places of worship" to reaffirm our love of Humanism, set out a strict code that all Humanists must follow or they'll be screwed at the end, and make sure that large amounts of money are donated to some sort of Central Humanist building which obviously needs a leader, who doesn't really need to follow the underlying Humanist values.... and then the world will be a much better pla......... oh crap its happened again!!