Egyptian revolution gathers pace.

[Happy Face 29]

Going to be a canny cat and mouse game this.

 

Very clever of him to take the sting out of the resolution by basically agreeing to everything.

 

Be interesting to see if we go ahead with air strikes or whether this turns into a drawn out long game.

 

..... attempting to play the same game as Saddam did and laugh at everybody for being too timid like he did .....

 

Here are the differences between George W. Bush’s invasion of Iraq in 2003 and the current United Nations action in Libya:

 

1. The action in Libya was authorized by the United Nations Security Council. That in Iraq was not. By the UN Charter, military action after 1945 should either come as self-defense or with UNSC authorization. Most countries in the world are signatories to the charter and bound by its provisions.

 

2. The Libyan people had risen up and thrown off the Qaddafi regime, with some 80-90 percent of the country having gone out of his hands before he started having tank commanders fire shells into peaceful crowds. It was this vast majority of the Libyan people that demanded the UN no-fly zone. In 2002-3 there was no similar popular movement against Saddam Hussein.

 

3. There was an ongoing massacre of civilians, and the threat of more such massacres in Benghazi, by the Qaddafi regime, which precipitated the UNSC resolution. Although the Saddam Hussein regime had massacred people in the 1980s and early 1990s, nothing was going on in 2002-2003 that would have required international intervention.

 

4. The Arab League urged the UNSC to take action against the Qaddafi regime, and in many ways precipitated Resolution 1973. The Arab League met in 2002 and expressed opposition to a war on Iraq. (Reports of Arab League backtracking on Sunday were incorrect, based on a remark of outgoing Secretary-General Amr Moussa that criticized the taking out of anti-aircraft batteries. The Arab League reaffirmed Sunday and Moussa agreed Monday that the No-Fly Zone is what it wants).

 

5. None of the United Nations allies envisages landing troops on the ground, nor does the UNSC authorize it. Iraq was invaded by land forces.

 

6. No false allegations were made against the Qaddafi regime, of being in league with al-Qaeda or of having a nuclear weapons program. The charge is massacre of peaceful civilian demonstrators and an actual promise to commit more such massacres.

 

7. The United States did not take the lead role in urging a no-fly zone, and was dragged into this action by its Arab and European allies. President Obama pledges that the US role, mainly disabling anti-aircraft batteries and bombing runways, will last “days, not months” before being turned over to other United Nations allies.

 

8. There is no sectarian or ethnic dimension to the Libyan conflict, whereas the US Pentagon conspired with Shiite and Kurdish parties to overthrow the Sunni-dominated Baathist regime in Iraq, setting the stage for a prolonged and bitter civil war.

 

9. The US has not rewarded countries such as Norway for entering the conflict as UN allies, but rather a genuine sense of outrage at the brutal crimes against humanity being committed by Qaddafi and his forces impelled the formation of this coalition. The Bush administration’s ‘coalition of the willing’ in contrast was often brought on board by what were essentially bribes.

 

10. Iraq in 2002-3 no longer posed a credible threat to its neighbors. A resurgent Qaddafi in Libya with petroleum billions at his disposal would likely attempt to undermine the democratic experiments in Tunisia and Egypt, blighting the lives of millions.

 

where did you copy and paste that from ?

 

http://www.juancole.com/2011/03/top-ten-wa...-iraq-2003.html

[Happy Face 29]

A US warplane has crash-landed in Libya

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12816226

[Happy Face 29]

80 or 90 % of Libyans had risen up? I dont remember that. The scenes of anti government demonstration were nowhere near as comparible as what went on in Egypt. Were there any demonstrations at all in the capitol, Tripoli?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12520366

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

"Where did you copy and paste that from?"

 

Take a wild guess.

 

[ChezGiven 0]

[ChezGiven 0]

http://www.arabyouthsurvey.com/asdaa-finding.html

 

Third Annual ASDA’A Burson-Marsteller Arab Youth Survey

ASDA’A Burson-Marsteller’s third annual survey of Middle East youth is the largest study of its kind of the largest demographic in a region where two-thirds of the population is under the age of 30

 

The Third ASDA’A Burson-Marsteller Arab Youth Survey covers 10 Middle East countries: the six Gulf Cooperation Council states (Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the UAE), Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and, for the first time, Iraq

 

2,000 young Arab men and women aged between 18-24 participated in the research, and interviews were conducted face-to-face

 

The fieldwork was conducted between December 2010-January 2011 by our sister firm Penn Schoen Berland (PSB), shortly before the start of uprisings in

Tunisia, then Egypt, Libya and other nations in the wider Middle East region

 

The research was as representative of Middle East youth as possible, with the sample reflecting each country’s socio-economic make-up and, where important, the views of Arab expatriates as well as citizens

 

Care was also taken to make the research geographically representative of each participating country, with fieldwork conducted in large population centres as well as capital cities

 

Top 10 Findings of the 2010 ASDA’A Burson-Marsteller Arab Youth Survey

• An enduring desire for democracy
  
• Anxiety grows about rising cost of living
  
• Gap between rich & poor of increasing concern
  
• Less optimism about economic recovery and future outlook
  
• Education gap widens betweens Gulf states and other Arab countries
  
• Increasing preference to work in private sector, eagerness to start own business
  
• Internet makes more inroads, with social media growing in importance
  
• Television the most popular and trusted source of news
  
• Traditional values are paramount, while parents grow in influence
  
• Increase in positive perception of global powers, growing sense of global citizenship
  

About the Survey Update

 

Following unrest in the Middle East in January 2011, Penn Schoen Berland (PSB) conducted an additional 500 interviews in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Bahrain and Iraq

 

Interviews were conducted among Arab national youth aged 18-24

 

Fieldwork was conducted between February 26-March 5, 2011, in capital cities

 

All comparative data related to the survey update compares only findings from the five relevant countries (Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Bahrain and Iraq) during the December 2010-January 2011 and February-March 2011 periods

[LeazesMag 0]

Anyway, did anybody see the documentary about Yvonne Fletcher the other night ?

[Billy Castell 0]

No, but the rebels have advanced as far as Ras Lanuf, and have it's oil refinery intact. They could perhaps sell oil to the Chinese for weapons on the sly. However, it's Gaddafi's back yard from now on, so they'd need better weapons and organisation.

 

There is also a story from the Saudis that France are talking to Gaddafi's son so he can replace him and form a transitional government involving the rebels for a few years. In return, the Gaddafi family will be allowed to avoid prosecution etc. The leak was well timed as it has come just after a rapid advance from the rebels.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

The most heartening single image of the past month—eclipsing even the bravery and dignity of the civilian fighters against despotism in Syria and Libya—was the sight of Hoshyar Zebari arriving in Paris to call for strong action against the depraved regime of Col. Muammar Qaddafi. Here was the foreign minister of Iraq, and the new head of the Arab League, helping to tilt the whole axis of local diplomacy against one-man rule. In May, Iraq will act as host to the Arab League summit, and it will be distinctly amusing and highly instructive to see which Arab leaders have the courage, or even the ability, to leave their own capitals and attend. The whole scene is especially gratifying for those of us who remember Zebari as the dedicated exile militant that he was 10 years ago, striving to defend his dispossessed people from the effects of Saddam Hussein's chemical weapons.

 

http://www.slate.com/id/2289587/ Little snippet of Hitchen's latest offering, full article in the link. Think he'll cop it in a few months (Hitch). Hopefully Qaddafi will beat him to the grave. Godspeed Mad Dog.

[Park Life 71]

I'll wait till he has passed (HItch) before replying.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

I'll wait till he has passed (HItch) before replying.

 

You just did reply, you mong

Edited March 28, 2011 by Kevin S. Assilleekunt

[Happy Face 29]

Glenn Greenwald has criticised Obama for dictatorially choosing to go to war in Libya without consulting congress....

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_gr...ower/index.html

 

Cole has been defending Obama as having done what he had to....

http://www.juancole.com/2011/03/obama-on-l...carrot-top.html

 

GG asked Cole a question often posed at LeazesMag...

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_gr...cole/index.html

 

Cole responded...

http://www.juancole.com/2011/03/answer-to-...-greenwald.html

 

and then asked a question a of Greenwald...

http://www.juancole.com/2011/04/questions-...-greenwald.html

 

GG yet to reply

 

It's all been very congenial with fact based and persuasive arguments on both sides....how the political discourse could be played out if the likes of Michelle Bachman weren't involved.

[Park Life 71]

Think Obama was right to Tomahawk Gadaffi forces thus preventing a bloodbath.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

Definitely. Qaddafi tried to blitz Benghazi in the hours before the resolutions passed. The Ivory Coast is fucked as well, not getting as much coverage behind the Quake/Libya, etc.

 

 

"Glenn Greenwald has criticised Obama for dictatorially choosing to go to war in Libya without consulting congress...."

 

Historically, Presidents have often made decisions without consulting congress in times of war, it's not uncommon.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Kevin S. Assilleekunt

[Park Life 71]

Definitely. Qaddafi tried to blitz Benghazi in the hours before the resolutions passed. The Ivory Coast is fucked as well, not getting as much coverage behind the Quake/Libya, etc.

 

 

"Glenn Greenwald has criticised Obama for dictatorially choosing to go to war in Libya without consulting congress...."

 

Historically, Presidents have often made decisions without consulting congress in times of war, it's not uncommon.

 

Agreed. There wasn't time to fuck abaht in congress.

 

See air strikes have dropped off now those clowns at nato are running it.