bez

Strangely mate, I was thinking the same thing however seeing as there have been so many great black players then I cant see why black managers wouldnt be given a job I therefore put it down to one simple fact, not many black people want to be a football manager. 48843[/snapback] You would think so but Batson and Alexander (see the bbc link i posted in an earlier thread)seem to think they have to 'work harder and do better' if they want to be appreciated That is the point i started this debate with. Even for fans perhaps black players have to do better to be appreciated by us. For many, in their subconscious, that may be the case.

But there are disproportionately more black players. No-one with any sense would argue this meant white people were being desciminated against though. You can add Tigana too. 48833[/snapback] Yeah there are a few. Not enough though. Certainly according to somearticles I have red they reckon it is institutional. Take a look at this. Decent artlicle. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4034423.stm

why should what happened 300 years ago ivolving people im in no way related to affect me getting a job? its like me saying ''aye but i wouldnt give the job to the black lad cos i was racially abused by a black man a couple of years ago.'' 48822[/snapback] Ignoring the fact that black people are still the victims of racism far moreso than white people.... The fact that black people are generally the poorest in developed nations stems from historical racism. It's not enough to say "we're all equal" when we're obviously not (How many black people did you see at the match on Sunday? In the pub before or after? where you work(other than cleaners)). What is required is a system of integration that accelerates the equilibrium of all races in society. That system is positive discrimination. Don't think of it as paying for what your ancestors did, but investing in future generations who can live in a world without racism. Fingers crossed. 48838[/snapback] Good post. There isnt any equilibrium of any sort at present. As for our history? Well some say we cant be held accountable for the deeds of our forefathers. Well, as long as we live under the same flag and nation state, we are obliged to. In my view.

Nope. It simply says that there have been numerous articles wondering why there have been so few black managers. Gullit got a fair crack up here I thought. Flys in the face of what I say but he had a charisma when he came that evaporated when he arsed up. That has nowt to do with race. My question remains the same. GENERALLY are black players given a fair and EQUAL crack of the whip from fans? I am not convinced. The black manager issue is just another way of saying that black people in football have more to prove. They find it more difficult.

Black managers? I agree on class structure though. That is another issue.

Peasepud. Just looking at another quote. From what we were saying about black people in general getting opportunities. How many black football managers in the football league and premiership (i mean ever.) We are actually one of the few clubs to have employed a black manager. Is there a reason for the paucity of black managers? Alexander? Curle? Gullit? not many. Its not really representative is it?

I agree with the argument overall but to decide that because you've heard or read a comment that you've taken as being racist doesnt make all forum members or newcastle/ football fans in general guilty of it. I do however feel that in the main, this country is not racist or sexist, whether in the workplace, the football ground or life in general. There are many reasons why there are less female or black managers than white male all of which can be turned around by people and made to be racist/ sexist reasons. Less female managers? a) lots of businesses such as heavy engineering etc have less female entrants, not because the business dont want females but because they themselves would rather not do that work therefore theres less of them to be promoted. b ) many women during their career leave to have children, its a fact of life that no matter how equal we want to be we cannot reverse genetics therefore breaks in careers make it harder to keep upto date or gain as much experience as a male counterpart. Less black managers? a) rightly or wrongly a lot of the black community come from poorer areas, and I know that this could be seen as a form of racism however its a fact of life, if someones grandfather came to this country and had to learn the language and get around the prejudices of the time then they ended up in the poorer paid jobs, this then gives their descendants less opportunity to gain better education than someone in a middle class background, again not fair but also in itself not racist. We as a generation cannot be made to pay for the previous generations problems. b ) There are less black people in this country than white so you could never get an even split, if you did then there would obviously be some form of racism involved (because believe it or not, racism against white people does happen). What can be seen though is that those black members of the country who have gone on and gained a higher level of education have in their careers gone on to be as successful as a white counterpart. Go to the city of London and you'll see many black men and women who are at the top of their careers, running companies and managing multi billion pound share dealings, Im sure they would be horrified if they thought they were there to meet targets or make up the numbers. No they're there because they were the best person for the job. Just as dropping Amdy Faye wouldnt be racist it would be because we had some other player available, personally Id happily ask for volunteers from the crowd before playing him but thats another story. 48814[/snapback] Fair points peasepud. The 'accusation' isnt aimed at anyone. Just thought provoking. However, government and independent statistics show sexism and racism is still rife. There are pro-rata statistics rather than total numbers in work. Examples? Will a black man ever be PM in your lifetime? Will a woman? (if she is like the last one then I hope not) In pay and promotion, blacks and women, pro-rata have more to prove and get less opportunity. Just a national issue and hence we have days like KROF. That is the point. aimed at nobosy but NUFC supporters to generate debate and understanding.

Why don't you name and shame these "unintelligent bairns" then? 48795[/snapback] There is no shame in not being erudite Renton. Nor is there any shame in being young and daft. Ignorance though? That is the issue. 48802[/snapback] It appears everybody on here is ignorant on here except you though. Funny that. 48807[/snapback] Youre getting there Renton. Ignorance doesnt mean 'thick'. Just not aware of. Did you know it was KROF day yesterday? You didnt did you? 48809[/snapback] I know now. You've said it often enough. Personally I don't see what good a KROF will do, especially if the purpose of it is to highlight a problem that doesn't exist. This might surprise you, but I haven't actually heard a racist chant at SJP for 5 years. If I ever did, I would be the first one to tell a steward and get the wanker banned for life. 48816[/snapback] I agree on banning. Gemmill mentioned he had 3 in 2 years. I have heard a lot more but I do listen for it cos I am an awkward twat (I assume you wont argue with that) I have heard people say it next to a steward and get away with it. It needs doing. Sadly it exists all the way through the game and society. Have a nice day.

No. Just a good education helps your cerebral faculty improve.

Why don't you name and shame these "unintelligent bairns" then? 48795[/snapback] There is no shame in not being erudite Renton. Nor is there any shame in being young and daft. Ignorance though? That is the issue. 48802[/snapback] It appears everybody on here is ignorant on here except you though. Funny that. 48807[/snapback] Youre getting there Renton. Ignorance doesnt mean 'thick'. Just not aware of. Did you know it was KROF day yesterday? You didnt did you?

No. I though he said 5 minutes rather than 10. Did you got to the game yesterday? 48794[/snapback] No I was saving lives at work again unfortunately 48801[/snapback] Well, it was very good. We won. 3-2. You posted around the same time as the match funnily enough.

Why don't you name and shame these "unintelligent bairns" then? 48795[/snapback] There is no shame in not being erudite Renton. Nor is there any shame in being young and daft. Ignorance though? That is the issue.

Provokes thought and that is why we have KROF days. When you grow up you might even understand the big words.

Cant agree peasepud Bling, as you have read, is intrinsically linked to black music and culture Bling bastard is thus not 'diamond wearing bastard' is it? I will let you work it out. Do a search on Newcastle forums for bling. See the association. We dont get that analogy or similar used with our white players. That is the point Personally, I am certain that black players (like most balck employees) have more to prove than their white equivalent. I will keep pointing that out at work, union meetings and here until its a level playing field. That is the point. 48762[/snapback] Bling isn't black culture, it's a less than pleasant phenomenon which is ingrained in certain groups of predominantly black kids. Just like we have white charvers. It's not ALL white culture, nor should it be seen as such. 48790[/snapback] Bling is in fact part of black culture. There are some excellent web sites commenting on it and some very good articles recently in the (not so well named) broadsheets

No. I though he said 5 minutes rather than 10. Did you got to the game yesterday?

Anyway peasepud. Just as an intelligent conversation was starting the bairns came onto the forum. Something for the intelligent amongst you to think about.

Five minutes? Well, yesterday was Kick Racism out of football day Renton. So for the first time ever I registered as not_a_racist As the day was done and the event gone. I renamed as Bez. A man I saw many times with the Happy Mondays. Been here for about 36 hours now. 36 hours = 36 *60 = 2160 minutes Not every 10 minutes as you claim. Thanks Yours sincerely, The smug, arrogant bastard!

But are you saying then that if we had a black player who totally immersed himself in their black culture so that there was nothing you could refer to which wasnt in some way related to the colour of their skin then that player should be immune from criticism for fear of sounding racist regardless of how poorly they performed or handled themselves off the pitch? 48773[/snapback] No. i used 'bling' as an example. In its real sense the use of the term 'bling bastard' is another way of saying 'black bastard' For some that is how it is used. Its just an example. I agree with the other word that i try to avoid thinking of never mind typing. Did you see what i meant by the other comments on the previous post? Do they make sense? Women? Black people have to try harder generally in society. Why are we the exception? Were not in my opinion. I dont doubt the black players played poorly. I have said that myself many times. I just feel they get less chance than white ones. WE arent as tolerant in my view.

Cant agree peasepud Bling, as you have read, is intrinsically linked to black music and culture Bling bastard is thus not 'diamond wearing bastard' is it? I will let you work it out. Do a search on Newcastle forums for bling. See the association. We dont get that analogy or similar used with our white players. That is the point Personally, I am certain that black players (like most balck employees) have more to prove than their white equivalent. I will keep pointing that out at work, union meetings and here until its a level playing field. That is the point. 48762[/snapback] But the point that many people on here are making is that the use of the bling put down is nothing to do with the colour of the skin or the origins of the word its to do with the actual bling, the fact that not many of the white players wear the bling is the reason why they dont get called for it. I'd be interested to get some views from black fans however we dont know who they are on here because surprise surprise we've never bothered to ask the question for one simple reason, its irrelevant to any discussions we have. Regardless of your own personal view I think you'll find that overall the extremely vast majority of Newcastle fans couldnt give a rats arse what colour the player is. 48768[/snapback] I probably agree that most fans are opposed to racism. In the same way we all tend to oppose sexism. However, there are massive problems in getting society to level itself out. Black workers are generally (and of course there are exceptions) not treated equally. It doesnt always happen. We know that. Its a serious issue. Same for women in the workplace. Hence men get paid more than women generally and get promoted more easily. The vast majority of managers in the UK say they arent sexist or racist. So how does this still happen? Well, sometimes we (some of us) cant avoid our own prejudice. In many ways we are the judges of the workers at NUFC. Why should our fans be any different to what society knows? That black 'workers' (substitute workers for players) have to prove themselves more and are given less opportunity to do so. The vitriol that occurs when - and 'bling bastard' is simply one example - the term is used is the issue that needs looking at. Why use a term thay we all know is linked to the black population? I still think black players have more to do at NUFC than white ones. that is my issue.

Valid point. totally ignores the context and associated vitriol though.

So you don't think 'bling' is a racist term* and you think anyone who plays shit gets abuse. So we're all in agreement. It's very noble to start a racism debate but the suggestion that criticism on this board has a racist connotation is wide of the mark I think. *Anyone who does is insane. The notion that the use of a phrase coined by a black person is in itself racist is possibly the most racist thing I've EVER heard. 48760[/snapback] Some black people use the term 'nigga' doesnt mean we can start saying it does it?

Cant agree peasepud Bling, as you have read, is intrinsically linked to black music and culture Bling bastard is thus not 'diamond wearing bastard' is it? I will let you work it out. Do a search on Newcastle forums for bling. See the association. We dont get that analogy or similar used with our white players. That is the point Personally, I am certain that black players (like most balck employees) have more to prove than their white equivalent. I will keep pointing that out at work, union meetings and here until its a level playing field. That is the point.

Black music and image intrinsically linked to black people. Bling bastard? Acceptable or not? I have no problem with you Gol. Never had. Nor Gemmill. My point is to stir debate on Kick Racism out of Football Day. It needs intelligent people - and I think you two are intelligent (hence the lazy minded today comment)- to discuss it. In the end look at the comment from the BBC. Bling is a term for and from black culture. It is unacceptable, regardless of whether or not we (wrongly) see bling as just being a big diamond ring, to use it in the terms it used. 'Bling bastard' has a tacit racist connotation for many. You? No. Me? No. but their is certainly bile their from many. Is Tyneside racist? Not sure. However, I still beleive that we havea problem bigger than we care to acknowledge. That was the reply Gol

SWEEP UNDER CARPET? Explain why Babayaro gets the 'bling bastard' comments when playing well - and people say he is shite when clearly he has done well. Whilst Stephen Carr doesnt get any such moniker for playing worse? Is the moniker - widely used - acceptable? We all know its connotations and what it actually mens in that context. Nb: |Regardless of the fact that you wish to sweep it under the carpet, I assume you have accepted that its not YOU personally I am talking of. However, it DOES exist. More widespread than youre prepared to acknowledge. It happens on this forum. Regularly. 48723[/snapback] Did you not rate Carr highly in yesterday's game, whilst I said he was shite? Surely that's me being racist? 48725[/snapback] Carr has been poor this season. Yesterday he did fine. So what? I see people didnt resort to descibing him as a ??? bastard though. did they. Babayaro, however, gets a slightly different response. Not from you. However, youre attitude makes you as cuplable as them at present. Idiot. 48728[/snapback] Sorry, I failed to spot that you were purely stating the obvious that racism does actually exist in this world. Congratulations for spotting that one. Just how many Newcastle supporters to that apply to by the way, based on your evidence and findings? Loving the irony that after you resorted to personal attacks, you then complained when it happened back to you. Bit lazy minded that one. "you're" btw 48732[/snapback] It's called irony. I apologise for using shorthand. In future, I will draw you pictures and post you crayons to colour it in with. Try to use them all. Well done on trivialising an important issue. One that is obvious but you DONT WANT to see. 48735[/snapback] What's called irony? That you got the grammar wrong? Congratulations on skipping every single point and question in my post though. Just how many Newcastle supporters does that apply to by the way, based on your evidence and findings? By the way, Gemmill has already used your put-down, just today in fact. Not very original of you tbh, and he's a lot funnier than you anyway 48737[/snapback] Hes more intelligent than you. He acknowledged that there is a problem. However, he did use the caveat (look it up on google) that it wasnt him! You really are the type of person that allows these issues to continue. Not quite bright enough to see the problem but too smug to acknowledge your own ignorance. Now, for the third time. Is 'bling bastard' an acceptable term in that context? Not that you have skipped it. Thats ironic too. 48740[/snapback] Here's me acknowledging it, a few posts back... Sorry, I failed to spot that you were purely stating the obvious that racism does actually exist in this world. Congratulations for spotting that one. That one ok for you? You're basing this "FACT" on your own opinion. Of course racism exists, we can all see it (towards all races, not just blacks) and I know you're not stupid enough to think that I refuse to acknowledge it (although maybe you are). Please please please show me some evidence where black players have to work twice as hard to be accepted at Newcastle. As for the bling bastard comments, I'm failing to see your point. Dyer is called bling because he wears bling. Jenas is called bling because he wears bling. Babayaro is called bling because he wears bling. If Carr turned up to a press conference wearing bling then I'm sure he'll get the label too. However, being labelled an "anything" bastard isn't acceptable in my opinion, regardless of colour. What's your point anyway, that Newcastle United are a racist club, or that some people in this world are racist. You're laughable at best mate. To say I was one of those championing for you to be unbanned on N-O, I'm beginning to wonder what the hell I was thinking. 48747[/snapback] Black music and image intrinsically linked to black people. Bling bastard? Acceptable or not? I have no problem with you Gol. Never had. Nor Gemmill. My point is to stir debate on Kick Racism out of Football Day. It needs intelligent people - and I think you two are intelligent (hence the lazy minded today comment)- to discuss it. In the end look at the comment from the BBC. Bling is a term for and from black culture. It is unacceptable, regardless of whether or not we (wrongly) see bling as just being a big diamond ring, to use it in the terms it used. 'Bling bastard' has a tacit racist connotation for many. You? No. Me? No. but their is certainly bile their from many. Is Tyneside racist? Not sure. However, I still beleive that we havea problem bigger than we care to acknowledge.