bez

Youre trivialising an important issue Alex. You dont seem to understand the complexities of the situation. No youre not. Bellamy can never be 'bling' in anything other than the OED version of the word. He has NEVER been called a 'bling bastard' on the forums in the context the others have. Check N-O or here for that comment. Do a search. See what it says. Explain why not. Dyer, Jenas and Babayaro have despite Bellamy having more written about him than any player. 49297[/snapback] I'm not trivialising it. How can I explain what other people meant though? Calling someone a bling bastard means they're flash though no? Also, what's wrong with using the OED version of the word? I tend to go with dictionary definitions rather than ones people apply to words in order to justify their argument. In any case, what point are you making. If you are saying a small minority of people have a racist agenda (or partly racist, i.e. the player's crap and on top of that he's black) when criticising players, then I would agree. However, the vast majority are not like this. 49307[/snapback] I will say this ONCE more look at the word 'coloured' in the OED and go out and call a big BLACK bloke it. See the comparison? Now go and find the origin of 'bling' and compare with the OED Different meanings. Very different. Now explain why the bloke you described as 'bling' never had the term used as a descriptor but the black fellas did. Frequently , by posters on NUFC websites and in pubs.

One is white. One is black. i havent seen Carr described needlessly as a 'potato picking tosser' or anything else related to his Irish blood and hence there is no real need to explain it. Is there? 49299[/snapback] I've called him a miserable, grumpy Paddy bastard many's a time. Well as long as you've never experienced it, that's ok. Irish people suffer bigotry in the UK btw. 49303[/snapback] Of course they do. However: Ever seen Craig Bellamy described on here as a Bling bastard? Why not? Despite having more written about him than any player in our recent history. So why do they reserve it for JJ, Dyer and Babayaro? Bellamy is (using the OED definition-very differnt from its true meaning and origin, 'bling') (just before you start - have a look at the word 'coloured' in the OED and see the analogy) Do people regularly align stephen Carr's footballing ability to the term 'paddy bastard' (which is indeed racist) Not really. Plenty there for thought.

He does play for Ireland though and he has Irish roots 49298[/snapback] In his hair? did you ever watch Roots?

One is white. One is black. i havent seen Carr described needlessly as a 'potato picking tosser' or anything else related to his Irish blood and hence there is no real need to explain it. Is there?

Youre trivialising an important issue Alex. You dont seem to understand the complexities of the situation. No youre not. Bellamy can never be 'bling' in anything other than the OED version of the word. He has NEVER been called a 'bling bastard' on the forums in the context the others have. Check N-O or here for that comment. Do a search. See what it says. Explain why not. Dyer, Jenas and Babayaro have despite Bellamy having more written about him than any player.

Some of the stuff I've said about O'Brien would make your ears bleed, there were times I hated him when he played for us and I got the impression that was the general feeling. JJ was always a big arguing point, an ever decreasing crowd waiting for his potential to start paying off and the people that were sick of waiting. I'm not sure of JJ's lifestyle but if it was anything like Dyer's then bling would not be an unfair comment, O'Brien's less bling than my granny. Also why are you so obsessed with racism only being a black thing? O'Brien is Irish you know. 49289[/snapback] What exactly does his culture and its attendant 'bling' have to do with his ability? There is, sadly, a direct correlation between the fact we seem to accept that we can use a term that is deeply seated in black culture follwed by the word 'bastard' and think it is acceptable. It isnt. There is, in my opinion a link between SOME who use the terminology and the implication. Why use it? As mentioned earlier, 'coloured' in context wasnt deemed to have much racist connotation 20-30 years ago. I suggest people need to consider the OED (Oxford English Dictionary) definition of the words 'coloured' and 'bling' and see that in some contexts we have seen on this forum and others it is beyond a joke. AOB isnt Irish

Is that because they aren't really as capable as their peers but got the job due to positive discrimination? 49116[/snapback] No, neither. There are cases (many of them) where BLACK people /women/black women etc (those we know from the statistics published by the DTI,EOC are discrimated against) DO THE SAME JOB (exactly the same job) and get paid less for it. Now, this happens regularly enough to put a 20% disparity between women and men doing EXACTLY THE SAME JOB across the UK. Nowt to do with ability. Lots to do with prejudice. The point is, if British society is capable of this then what makes NUFC any different in its ability to tolerate Black players and treat them equally? Now, MOST people are rational. Most people also have some prejudice of some sort somewhere, however much we have rightly pushed it away. Given Andy Coles return to SJP and the bile (much of it involving the word BLACK) and the ridiculous comments made about players recently: Compare these comments from forums: JJ (break legs/die/bling bastard etc) with AOB (shit). The vitriol is very different. The same with Baba/Carr. Dyer when not playing (waste of spunk) and Bowyer when not "playing". Whether we care to see it or not there is an undercurrent. Not as visible as it used to be but a bigger issue than some who care to acknowledge. For every exception to the rule there is another example we can mention. Nobody has said that SJP has turned into Burnley. Not have we said that every poster is Nick Griffin. However, racism is on the rise nationally in many ways. Politically, the NF/BNP are gaining some ground. Tensions go with it. To ignore it is fine. We have had that bullshit line from several people. So why do we have an EOC? KROF? Anyway, at least some people have decided to think (for a change) Next time you or the people sat next to you at the match or the pub slag Stephen Carr, ask yourself whether it was preceded with a moniker related to his ancestry and culture. did they do the other lads the same courtesy? One strike and out is the racism rule in football grounds. Until we have eradicated the problem entirely we need to keep on eye on it and perhaps some people will notice we arent as free from it as many suggest. 49258[/snapback] That's a pretty sizable response to a joke comment! I agree with you that society has to be pro-actively anti-racist for quite a long time to come but there is a whole other side to this argument. If you just say racism is wrong and let's put together some blanket policies to stop it the problems you end up with are just as bad. Labelling things as racist which aren't racist, making people afraid to discuss the issues, hysteria and quite possibly positive discrimination. Here's food for thought, why not just positively discriminate for poor, underprivileged people? Starting with better education and public health. 49283[/snapback] blanket policies already exist for racism. Most decent people understand its a 'one strike and out' situation. I totally agree with your comment regarding underprivileged and poor. It all needs doing. birmingham at present sums it up. Its back to Toxteth and the lessons still havent been learned. What next? Well wait for a few years and see if Burnley erupts again. Its part of the same equation of course. Povery breeds contempt for those who have things (some people without get bitter) Culture clash? People saying 'they' have 'our' jobs....etc Plenty to do Nb: The word 'coloured' was acceptable 20 years ago. Some stll happily called black people 'niggers' Some would suggest that the waywe use labels (and indeed the fact that we have used them) determines what the implied message is.

vitriolic? Wonder what he feels about AOB 49267[/snapback] Probably thought he was a tryer who was shite. 49271[/snapback] Perhaps. Wonder if he got the vitriol. If I quoted you it was in error. Just got in and buying something on ebay is top of the agenda at present. 49273[/snapback] In fairness to AOB, I think he was a 100-er, even if he wasn't good enough. Not sure JJ always gave his all. 49275[/snapback] I dont buy that. JJ played in every position for NUFC. We ruined him and the only moan he had was pointing out that Newcastle is big village. It is. Unwise to say it but true enough. I do think some players get the vitriol easier than others. 49278[/snapback] Ok then Bez, how come despite some very ordinary performances JJ got practically no stick at the match whereas AOB got loads of stick? Explain that. 49280[/snapback] JJ got lots and lots of abuse in the Leazes. He is one of the few black players I have heard the words 'black bastard' shouted at recently. Both got it Alex. This is simply an example. Look at the vitriol in the comment above. Find a similar AOB one? Its out of proportion to the kids displays and his temperament. Why?

vitriolic? Wonder what he feels about AOB 49267[/snapback] Probably thought he was a tryer who was shite. 49271[/snapback] Perhaps. Wonder if he got the vitriol. If I quoted you it was in error. Just got in and buying something on ebay is top of the agenda at present. 49273[/snapback] In fairness to AOB, I think he was a 100-er, even if he wasn't good enough. Not sure JJ always gave his all. 49275[/snapback] I dont buy that. JJ played in every position for NUFC. We ruined him and the only moan he had was pointing out that Newcastle is big village. It is. Unwise to say it but true enough. I do think some players get the vitriol easier than others.

vitriolic? Wonder what he feels about AOB 49267[/snapback] Probably thought he was a tryer who was shite. 49271[/snapback] Perhaps. Wonder if he got the vitriol. If I quoted you it was in error. Just got in and buying something on ebay is top of the agenda at present.

Sorry. not with you Alex. Explain please.

vitriolic? Wonder what he feels about AOB

Also has a lot of black academics, something you don't find in UK Universities. 49251[/snapback] Uncle Tom's tbh. 49255[/snapback] You reckon? have I been whooshed? i would have thought there are plenty of radical thinkers amongst African-American academics. Also, would you prefer a situation like this country where the opposite is the case and there are hardly any black people in University departments? 49260[/snapback]

Is that because they aren't really as capable as their peers but got the job due to positive discrimination? 49116[/snapback] No, neither. There are cases (many of them) where BLACK people /women/black women etc (those we know from the statistics published by the DTI,EOC are discrimated against) DO THE SAME JOB (exactly the same job) and get paid less for it. Now, this happens regularly enough to put a 20% disparity between women and men doing EXACTLY THE SAME JOB across the UK. Nowt to do with ability. Lots to do with prejudice. The point is, if British society is capable of this then what makes NUFC any different in its ability to tolerate Black players and treat them equally? Now, MOST people are rational. Most people also have some prejudice of some sort somewhere, however much we have rightly pushed it away. Given Andy Coles return to SJP and the bile (much of it involving the word BLACK) and the ridiculous comments made about players recently: Compare these comments from forums: JJ (break legs/die/bling bastard etc) with AOB (shit). The vitriol is very different. The same with Baba/Carr. Dyer when not playing (waste of spunk) and Bowyer when not "playing". Whether we care to see it or not there is an undercurrent. Not as visible as it used to be but a bigger issue than some who care to acknowledge. For every exception to the rule there is another example we can mention. Nobody has said that SJP has turned into Burnley. Not have we said that every poster is Nick Griffin. However, racism is on the rise nationally in many ways. Politically, the NF/BNP are gaining some ground. Tensions go with it. To ignore it is fine. We have had that bullshit line from several people. So why do we have an EOC? KROF? Anyway, at least some people have decided to think (for a change) Next time you or the people sat next to you at the match or the pub slag Stephen Carr, ask yourself whether it was preceded with a moniker related to his ancestry and culture. did they do the other lads the same courtesy? One strike and out is the racism rule in football grounds. Until we have eradicated the problem entirely we need to keep on eye on it and perhaps some people will notice we arent as free from it as many suggest.

There are reasons for these issues. I don't believe there is ONE reason for any ONE issue though. When the pay ones are worked out. Is it a minor discrepancy? Look at the equal opps web site Look at the DTI web site Women in similar jobs get paid less than men. Acceptable? Black people in similar jobs find promotion more difficult than whites. Acceptable? There are always flaws in statistics. I was asked to bring some to the debate. These are simply a selection.

Discrimination relating to pay: Equal opps commision details stats. http://www.eoc-law.org.uk/Default.aspx?page=2685 black people (same job examples are noted) get paid LESS than white counterparts FOOTBALL RACISM - decent article from the BBC. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4034423.stm To those who simply say 'mentioning it is as bad as being it' or similar .....look at the statistics and tell me how you think it will go away if we simply ignore it. It isnt all people, but as Bridget says..there probably is a subconscious at work and it isnt favouring equality.

• Ethnic minorities account for approximately 5.6% of the UK's population. [Office for National Statistics] • Unemployment stands at 6% for whites, 8% for Indians, 19% among the black community, and 21% among Bangladeshis and Pakistanis. • 23% of those studying medicine are from ethnic minorities. [HESA Students in Higher Education] • Ethnic minorities make up 1% of the Armed forces. The MoD target is 5% by 2002. [MoD] An African graduate is seven times more likely to be unemployed than a white graduate. [institute for social & economic research (Uni. of Essex)] • On average, Pakistani/Bangladeshi men earn just over half the salary of their white peers. Caribbean & African men earn approximately two thirds. [institute for social & economic research (Uni. of Essex)] • Only 52 of the 3,000 senior civil servants are from ethnic minorities. Of those, 46 are men and six are women. [Whitehall figures] • 47% of Britain's ethnic minorities live in London. [Office of National Statistics.] • Caribbean men are more likely than any other ethnic group to be in a mixed-race relationship. One third of Caribbean women and Asian men are with a white partner. [PSI] • There are no black high court judges. 15.8% of new solicitors are black or Asian and 8.5% of barristers are non-white. [Law Society, 1998] • More than 40% of 16-17yr olds from ethnic minority groups are unemployed compared with 18% of their white peers. [Labour Force Survey] • Black people nearly eight times more likely to be stopped and searched, 4 times more likely to be arrested than white people. [statewatch] • Only 29% of Black teens passed five GCSE exams at grade C or above compared with 47% of white teenagers, 53% of Indians and 61% of SE Asians. [Ofsted report] • Asians account for nearly 10% of university applications compared with 3.3% from Black students. [PSI] • Black people are between four and seven times more likely to be sentenced to prison terms than white people. [statewatch - (police research group)] • Black children are six times more likely to be expelled or suspended from school than their white counterparts. [Children's society.1999] Some worrying issues? There are similar situations between male and female although we don't have an lasses playing for NUFC first team just yet. The difference in pay for the SAME job for men and women is about that a woman is paid about 20% less. There are similar problems between white /black. Nb: Issues in Birmingham recently are not to far away from Toxteth 20 odd years ago. It HASNT gone away.

Wasn't Justin Fashanu openly gay while playing. It's certainly why Clough had the police escort him away from training when he refused to leave. 48965[/snapback] Not when he was at the peak of his career. It wasnt common knowledge to fans. Might have(and probably was) known within the game but he came out a little later. Cloughs biography states that this issue was one of his biggest regrets. Basically he says he didnt understand Fashanu's problems and mismanaged them

Yeah, i used to think like that. It happens a lot. The majority are fine. The minority arent. Not explicity that is. I heard various decent people call Andy Cole things in an out of the ground they shouldnt have when he came back. That they 'didnt mean it' like that isnt good enough.

Rich coming from you tbh I think you need to read the thread more.... Yesterday was KROF day. The message is simple...dont tolerate racism. One strike...OUT. However, it works on different levels. WE have always had Bigger problems with racism than most in our history. Howard Gayle wasnt met with glee. Put it that way. Other teams had serious bother here. I've mentioned Alex Williams as its the biggest and easist reminder of our illustrious past. I cant imagine anyone not having heard racism at SJP. On various levels its alive and well. Black people HAVE to work harder for recognition than white people in our society. Their errors are tolerated less. WE know that from various academic surveys. Factual evidence exists. Put NUFC into this and we see that black players have to work harder for recognition and are given less leeway. Some of the comments from people on various boards are ludicrous. Of course it isnt all. However, there are certainly those on other boards who happily support the NF and have been known to post pics supporting it. Plenty of them in fact. Whilst we have those people it doesnt take the wit of Soloman to see where some of the pointless diatribes come from. Acceptable? Its there. If you prefer not to see it. That is your problem. It isnt as bad or as big as it was. However, it exists. We know the KROF campaign is there for a reason. There are various people who condone racism when they shouldnt. That is SICK. Plenty of examples at SJP. Plenty of comments that are skipped over are actually racist. Plenty of example that can be used to attempt to illustrate that we love black players. Cole (did you hear some of the comments when he returned?) Ferdinand etc. Valid? As valid as the point that indicates that we havent managed to stamp out the problem. There is plenty to debate on this issue without that ludicrous, ill-informed, badly written junk from a bloke who condones it.

Churlist 48871[/snapback]

Nope. It simply says that there have been numerous articles wondering why there have been so few black managers. Gullit got a fair crack up here I thought. Flys in the face of what I say but he had a charisma when he came that evaporated when he arsed up. That has nowt to do with race. My question remains the same. GENERALLY are black players given a fair and EQUAL crack of the whip from fans? I am not convinced. The black manager issue is just another way of saying that black people in football have more to prove. They find it more difficult. 48837[/snapback] Well this thread has certainly gone off in all directions! Have to mention Leroy Rosenior here, hes our manager at Torquay united. And he's black. He got the job on merit because our chairman felt he was right for the job. Admittedly we're not doing well this season, but we will never forget he took us up to league one and gave us so many memories to cherish on the way. Leroy has our respect and we always sing his name at the end of a match, even now while we're struggling. Leroy being black is never and has never been an issue here, infact, Torquay have in recent years had a high percentage of black players (before leroy's time) this is quite unusual when you think there are so few black people living down here in Devon. The vast majority of tufc fans are white, yet we never have a racist problem here. i think once i heard some idiot call out a name and he was very quickly removed by stewards and fans i might add. I really believe people can make a problem where there isnt one, often by giving these racist morons the attention they crave. 48867[/snapback] Fair point . Should we have KROF days? Do we need them? If there are problems with racism, even in everyday UK life, e.g the jobs market, what do we do about it?

Yeah, but apparently you can't slag off the black players. That's racist. 48861[/snapback] Thats not racist. Your comment, however, is churlish. 48864[/snapback] Me? A churl? I've never been so offended 48866[/snapback] I said Churlish. Not even a 'proper' churl as Graeme Souness might say.

Yeah, but apparently you can't slag off the black players. That's racist. 48861[/snapback] Thats not racist. Your comment, however, is churlish.