A question for the theists

[NJS 3978]

In fact NJS deeper science digs into the nature of things the less things become predictable an infact nearly everything is possible at the same time. It is utter rubbish the way you are portraying science as some kind of codifying all encompassing force IT ISN'T...Physics is currently in an exciting mess as we see how little we understand and how little we can predict.

 

Thats not my view at all - I know that relatively recent discoveries actually open up whole new ball games and reveal a universe a million miles from Newton's notion that once we know how everything works then we can predict everything but its the intent to look at these things that appeals to me.

 

The failure to question things is what condemns religion at its core for me (theology is just dancing around shite) - if science "proves" that the universe is the plaything of some mega-entity then so be it - but lets at least find the bloke first.

 

Forget about fucking religion....the deabte here should be about spirituality, something we ALL have - even if we feel it only as a momentary sense of wonderment. And if we are going to line up spirituality/mysticism - then yes that would be a good foil for 'string theory'. These long sentences mean something....Not sure what.

I take your point about religion however and agree. But the engine room of religion is mysticism....You see??

 

What you call "spirituality" I just called an evolved intellect taking in its environment with a "sense of wonder" which I have no problem with. It just doesn't have to be couched in pretensious terms imo.

[Park Life 70]

In fact NJS deeper science digs into the nature of things the less things become predictable an infact nearly everything is possible at the same time. It is utter rubbish the way you are portraying science as some kind of codifying all encompassing force IT ISN'T...Physics is currently in an exciting mess as we see how little we understand and how little we can predict.

 

Thats not my view at all - I know that relatively recent discoveries actually open up whole new ball games and reveal a universe a million miles from Newton's notion that once we know how everything works then we can predict everything but its the intent to look at these things that appeals to me.

 

The failure to question things is what condemns religion at its core for me (theology is just dancing around shite) - if science "proves" that the universe is the plaything of some mega-entity then so be it - but lets at least find the bloke first.

 

Forget about fucking religion....the deabte here should be about spirituality, something we ALL have - even if we feel it only as a momentary sense of wonderment. And if we are going to line up spirituality/mysticism - then yes that would be a good foil for 'string theory'. These long sentences mean something....Not sure what.

I take your point about religion however and agree. But the engine room of religion is mysticism....You see??

 

What you call "spirituality" I just called an evolved intellect taking in its environment with a "sense of wonder" which I have no problem with. It just doesn't have to be couched in pretensious terms imo.

 

 

.....now here is something to chew on...I have a hunch that this 'sense of wonder' was here before us and is part of the universal force. This is not a trap and this isn't the God game reversed...What do you reckon?

[NJS 3978]

.....now here is something to chew on...I have a hunch that this 'sense of wonder' was here before us and is part of the universal force. This is not a trap and this isn't the God game reversed...What do you reckon?

 

Just because I'm so anti-religion doesn't mean the idea doesn't intrigue me but my instinct is to say no....

 

I think if it did exist one of the "conditions" I'd have would be an end to the idea than humans are so special compared to other animals. I'm a big fan of Monkey Business on Animal Planet and its easy to recognise that same "sense of wonder" being displayed by chimps - albeit at simpler things sometimes like giant ice lollies

 

Its thinking about things like this that most make me regret that a humans's lifespan is so short - I'd love to be able to live another couple of hundred years (at least) for no other reason to see what we find out about the universe in that time (and maybe see us win a trophy).

[Renton 17777]

.....now here is something to chew on...I have a hunch that this 'sense of wonder' was here before us and is part of the universal force. This is not a trap and this isn't the God game reversed...What do you reckon?

 

Just because I'm so anti-religion doesn't mean the idea doesn't intrigue me but my instinct is to say no....

 

I think if it did exist one of the "conditions" I'd have would be an end to the idea than humans are so special compared to other animals. I'm a big fan of Monkey Business on Animal Planet and its easy to recognise that same "sense of wonder" being displayed by chimps - albeit at simpler things sometimes like giant ice lollies

 

Its thinking about things like this that most make me regret that a humans's lifespan is so short - I'd love to be able to live another couple of hundred years (at least) for no other reason to see what we find out about the universe in that time (and maybe see us win a trophy).

 

Come on, now you're just being silly.

[NJS 3978]

Come on, now you're just being silly.

 

Yep - we do have the weirdest religion of all.

[TheInspiration 1]

The brain and the mind combine to form one of the last frontiers of science. A lot of recent work has started to explain "revelations" and "mystical experience" - I'm not saying such discoveries would or should hinder your beliefs per se - they are a part of you but I'd hope your fascination with science would let you consider such evdence.

That is definitely true, and I actually think there may be times people lie to themselves, or may have been hallucinating possibly. I can't understand how it would answer all sorts of questions regarding such experiences. I have heard and seen a huge number of cases where people have had a really "big" meet with God. Today a friend of mine said he was at a talk with some other people where a man who used to be one of the biggest gangsters in east London became a Christian. He used to hurt and probably kill people and earn millions. He now lives in a small house with his wife (who he used to beat up and also became a Christian). He'd seen some pretty horrid things in his time, but when he had a big calling he became a Christian and having God in his life had such an immense change to it. He lives his life for God, despite what he used to be and all he's been through. Now I'm afraid, those things don't happen every day. Similarly, not every "miracle" that takes place can be a healing from God - there's reasons for this. Yet these happen all over the world every day and it's a big big risk to deny it all as being healing from God.

 

I'm not sure what some atheists might perceive religious experience - it strikes me from what I've read by various people, that they think an imaginary voice must say random things in some Christians' heads maybe once or twice in their lifetimes. Dawkins went on to say the Yorkshire Ripper was told to kill someone by Jesus - I think he might be missing the point somewhat in that Christianity is based on subjective relationships with God, not just the belief he exists and will help you.

 

I'm sure I could really go on but chances are would make myself look ridiculous.

[NJS 3978]

The brain and the mind combine to form one of the last frontiers of science. A lot of recent work has started to explain "revelations" and "mystical experience" - I'm not saying such discoveries would or should hinder your beliefs per se - they are a part of you but I'd hope your fascination with science would let you consider such evdence.

That is definitely true, and I actually think there may be times people lie to themselves, or may have been hallucinating possibly. I can't understand how it would answer all sorts of questions regarding such experiences. I have heard and seen a huge number of cases where people have had a really "big" meet with God. Today a friend of mine said he was at a talk with some other people where a man who used to be one of the biggest gangsters in east London became a Christian. He used to hurt and probably kill people and earn millions. He now lives in a small house with his wife (who he used to beat up and also became a Christian). He'd seen some pretty horrid things in his time, but when he had a big calling he became a Christian and having God in his life had such an immense change to it. He lives his life for God, despite what he used to be and all he's been through. Now I'm afraid, those things don't happen every day. Similarly, not every "miracle" that takes place can be a healing from God - there's reasons for this. Yet these happen all over the world every day and it's a big big risk to deny it all as being healing from God.

 

I'm not sure what some atheists might perceive religious experience - it strikes me from what I've read by various people, that they think an imaginary voice must say random things in some Christians' heads maybe once or twice in their lifetimes. Dawkins went on to say the Yorkshire Ripper was told to kill someone by Jesus - I think he might be missing the point somewhat in that Christianity is based on subjective relationships with God, not just the belief he exists and will help you.

 

I'm sure I could really go on but chances are would make myself look ridiculous.

 

A "bad" man becoming "good" is obviously good - but I'm afraid it doesn't prove that what he put it down to is true.

 

13 years ago I was a really lazy fat bastard heading for an early grave when I had a health scare which changed my life - I've let it slip a little and am now an "average" fat bastard but that life changing moment was a simple reaction to fear of death - not a "revelation" though I could easily describe it that way if inclined.

 

I'm also afraid I don't believe in miracles - every day or ever - none have ever been proved. I know there have been claims for some people from Lourdes and similar but there have been just as many spontaneous remissions from some diseases without "intervention" while of course nobody questions how many pilgrims are "rejected".

 

The same "logic" is used elsewhere - that case the other week when the bairn was given viagra - Doctor's with years of training use all their expertise and finally use a drug brought by science to save a life. The parents thank the doctors then say "we prayed for a miracle and got one" - so which God was it that caused the kid to be born early in the first place and endanger its life? If they believe the God goes around constantly "correcting" his mistakes if the people are worthy then why don't they ask whether the initial problem means they were being "punished" - if thats the case what for?

[Renton 17777]

The brain and the mind combine to form one of the last frontiers of science. A lot of recent work has started to explain "revelations" and "mystical experience" - I'm not saying such discoveries would or should hinder your beliefs per se - they are a part of you but I'd hope your fascination with science would let you consider such evdence.

That is definitely true, and I actually think there may be times people lie to themselves, or may have been hallucinating possibly. I can't understand how it would answer all sorts of questions regarding such experiences. I have heard and seen a huge number of cases where people have had a really "big" meet with God. Today a friend of mine said he was at a talk with some other people where a man who used to be one of the biggest gangsters in east London became a Christian. He used to hurt and probably kill people and earn millions. He now lives in a small house with his wife (who he used to beat up and also became a Christian). He'd seen some pretty horrid things in his time, but when he had a big calling he became a Christian and having God in his life had such an immense change to it. He lives his life for God, despite what he used to be and all he's been through. Now I'm afraid, those things don't happen every day. Similarly, not every "miracle" that takes place can be a healing from God - there's reasons for this. Yet these happen all over the world every day and it's a big big risk to deny it all as being healing from God.

 

I'm not sure what some atheists might perceive religious experience - it strikes me from what I've read by various people, that they think an imaginary voice must say random things in some Christians' heads maybe once or twice in their lifetimes. Dawkins went on to say the Yorkshire Ripper was told to kill someone by Jesus - I think he might be missing the point somewhat in that Christianity is based on subjective relationships with God, not just the belief he exists and will help you.

 

I'm sure I could really go on but chances are would make myself look ridiculous.

 

A "bad" man becoming "good" is obviously good - but I'm afraid it doesn't prove that what he put it down to is true.

 

13 years ago I was a really lazy fat bastard heading for an early grave when I had a health scare which changed my life - I've let it slip a little and am now an "average" fat bastard but that life changing moment was a simple reaction to fear of death - not a "revelation" though I could easily describe it that way if inclined.

 

I'm also afraid I don't believe in miracles - every day or ever - none have ever been proved. I know there have been claims for some people from Lourdes and similar but there have been just as many spontaneous remissions from some diseases without "intervention" while of course nobody questions how many pilgrims are "rejected".

 

The same "logic" is used elsewhere - that case the other week when the bairn was given viagra - Doctor's with years of training use all their expertise and finally use a drug brought by science to save a life. The parents thank the doctors then say "we prayed for a miracle and got one" - so which God was it that caused the kid to be born early in the first place and endanger its life? If they believe the God goes around constantly "correcting" his mistakes if the people are worthy then why don't they ask whether the initial problem means they were being "punished" - if thats the case what for?

 

Quite. I saw a program about tornadoes in the US the other week, which focussed on interviews with the survivors. This being the southern states the evangelical response was predictable - God was in a win win situation. Whenever there was a "miraculous" survival it was attributed to intervention by God. Whenever someone was killed it was "God coming down to take his son/daughter home". The tornado itself was attributed to God or the Devil depending on whether the witness's relative or friend had died or not. It was never described as a random force of nature though.

 

As for Lourdes, research has shown the amount of "miracles" is no higher than the background average. To give them credit though, the catholic church does accept this but states the purpose is to give people hope, which is fair enough if you discount the crass commercialism of the place.

[Fop 1]

Quite. I saw a program about tornadoes in the US the other week, which focussed on interviews with the survivors. This being the southern states the evangelical response was predictable - God was in a win win situation. Whenever there was a "miraculous" survival it was attributed to intervention by God. Whenever someone was killed it was "God coming down to take his son/daughter home". The tornado itself was attributed to God or the Devil depending on whether the witness's relative or friend had died or not. It was never described as a random force of nature though.

 

As for Lourdes, research has shown the amount of "miracles" is no higher than the background average. To give them credit though, the catholic church does accept this but states the purpose is to give people hope, which is fair enough if you discount the crass commercialism of the place.

 

 

That reminds me of the Boxing Day tsunami, quite a lot of mosques survived in areas where most everything else was flattened.

 

Of course this was attributed to "God" (or "Allah" I suppose).

 

But of course in reality it was because most mosques are built of stone (where as most of the surrounding buildings were built of wood, or at best mud plaster/brick) and are built in a traditional islamic column structure on the ground floor (of all mosques not just in that area) so allow water to flow though them rather than build up pressure and collapse them.

 

Making them almost perfectly designed to survive that sort of violent flood.

 

 

No miracle, just a fortunate quirk of architecture (which likely makes them more vulenerable to say earthquakes).