Rayvin

I mean, I could do it. Let's be real, almost anyone in here could run the Labour Party more effectively than it is presently being operated. And I could just tell them that I identify as a woman. No one would be able to say a damn thing.

This was surprisingly sparse on details

Watson is too divisive for the party membership IMO. Needs to be someone a bit more understated - probably wouldn't hurt if it was a woman, either.

I mean the same was kind of true with Corbyn

Yes I guess so. EU elections were the time to do it. So we'll sail into the abyss for the sake of disaster socialism, apparently.

All of which could be headed off if Labour would just get behind Remain.

This is exactly how I see it. The Tories only hope now is to either somehow get no deal through, or put it back to another referendum.

If there's a GE tomorrow and -all- Remain vote Lib Dem or Green, we get a Lib Dem or Green government. If you're just talking about that 50% deserter Labour voters plus the historical LD and G voters, then they aren't strong enough on their own, but it means that Labour with it's remaining 30% should be a kingmaker. And they have to choose between Tory/BP minority government, or a coalition of remainers. But I was talking about a referendum really. The GE isn't going to help anyone at all, at any point. Which is why Labour banking on it is ludicrous.

I'm not quite sure who you think Labour are appealing to though. There may not be a stop Brexit button, but there sure as hell should be a structured opposition to a hugely damaging government policy, and that opposition should be remain - a position Labour themselves campaigned for. Them taking a stance on this would demonstrate far more clearly that there are consequences to Brexit that are seriously worth opposing, and give Remain a force to rally around. Moreover, it will win them far more votes in any GE than their current position, which has them struggling to stay ahead of the Lib Dems. I mean fine, give the Tories what they need to be able to paint Labour as Remain - what fucking consequence is there to that now? Labour have lost everyone they're going to lose to this issue full stop - so choose a fucking side! Try to win back the 14% of lost voters who went for the Brexit Party, or try to win back the 50% of voters who went for the Lib Dems. There is simply no good logic for their stance, and it is clear to me that they don't have the stones to take on Brexit properly, and simply want it to go away so they can focus on their other policy issues. They're fucking useless.

I've fucking had it with Labour now tbh. Clearly the plan is that they're going to try to get in the same way the Nazis believe they can get in - extreme economic turmoil. So they'll let Johnson walk the country off a cliff, and then sweep in on the back of a punishment vote. If this is the plan, then even if it means returning Johnson to PM, I will never vote for them. Not that I matter in my pointlessly safe Labour seat.

It may be a trap, but if she calls one Labour have to back it. Otherwise they're effectively demonstrating a vote of confidence in the government.

If they call one and Labour doesn't back it then yes, his hand has been strengthened. If one is called, Labour need to go all in with it.

He's going to have to get used to the Lib Dems getting the credit for things Labour should be doing, for as long as Labour persist with not doing things things that Labour should be doing.

Why wouldn't he? Seriously, why wouldn't he? What the fuck possible advantage is there to Labour in not backing it. EDIT - which isn't to say I think you're wrong btw. I'm just incredulous that it could even be in doubt and frustrated that this is where Labour are.

I'm thinking that if they have a GE, it'll inevitably become a Tory/BP coalition. Labour will fail us as they always do these days. After Brexit is settled, I guess the Tory Party absorbs BP and becomes a new moderate right wing force in the country. The centrists are pushed out and the lasting issue David Cameron sought to settle with this whole stupid fiasco is indeed settled, in the favour of the 70 fringe members of the Conservative Party who essentially take over the whole thing. So then we have moderate left Labour, moderate right Tories, and the Lib Dems standing alone in the centre. And when push comes to shove, my money is on the centrists looking to the right instead of the left. So I think we're fucked for a generation unless remain can mobilise properly at this GE.

If hes pushing out all the moderates, isn't that a decent sign for us? They'll vote to bring him down, surely? Vote against no deal, etc..

I've heard some good things about this guy from some German friends of mine but at £40m he has to be about £10m worth of improvement on Perez. I'm skeptical about that.

So we're at this stage in the cycle. Spend massively, sack Bruce in the new year, get relegated.

This wasn't something we could influence so I don't see the need to worry about it overly. The death throes of the Tory party. If he is returned + Farage following a GE, then we have a problem.

He cannot possibly be that petty and small minded but I'm struggling to think of any other explanation for that. He's either going to screw Bruce for literally no reason, or he's fucking with us. Way more likely to be the latter, despite how utterly insane it is.

Do you think they're just saying whatever and betting on parliament denying/saving them?

It's not so much equivalence as a demonstration that the current state of US affairs wasn't exactly positive pre-Trump, and that there was an awful lot less (none) outcry about it.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-build-cages-immigrants/ EDIT - my bad, somehow missed that post.

Seems the only thing we can do to arm ourselves in the future of increasing misinformation...