Rayvin

I'm not totally sure what point you're making here. I looked into it further anyway, and suppose you mean the crusades (which I consider to be separate to what we broadly consider to be colonialism but I can see the logic). Apart from what looks like a few years when the Jews were fighting the Romans though, it appears it was Arab owned (later Muslim) for about 1500 years, with the exception of a 200 year Christian/Mongol/Muslim clusterfuck. None of which means we can't say that this land is theirs, but I think if you're going to go back and rewrite wrongs from 1500 years ago in the same way that has been done for Israel... I mean the USA ceases to exist on the spot, for one thing.

Oh right, I remember that now. Sorry

I've reflected on it more anyway, and even the first part of my previous statement was nonsense. Clearly an idea can be racially problematic. Ethnic cleansing for instance is a political position which clearly is racially motivated and should be considered utterly untouchable. I suppose then that all things being equal, the contention about Zionism comes down to whether or not it is 'racist' to deny Jewish people the right to take over the homeland of another group of people without the latter's consent, but while knowing that this was, some 500 years ago, actually a Jewish country.

Well fuck

I'm not going to agree that attacking Zionism makes someone antisemitic by definition because once you get into the area of 'ideas' being untouchable and conflated with unchangeable attributes like race, it's a race to the bottom for ideologies all over the place. I will agree that 100% of antisemites will be anti-Zionists.

The Ottomans, according to Google, took over in 1517 and held it for about 400 years. That's pre-colonialism for the white European powers. Not that I'm completely sure why we're arguing this particular point.

Ok yes, I see this.

Given I'm embroiled in an argument about the rest of the statement, who the fuck knows.

Yeah that's not the same. I could be an advocate for Zionism without being Jewish. If someone attacked me for it would that mean they were being antisemitic to me despite the fact that I'm not Jewish?

Was it not the Ottomans that kicked them out of Israel?

Well anti-semitism is of course a hatred of Jewish people, and Zionism is a political movement. That's my basis for the statement.

Zionism pertaining to the creation of a Jewish homeland? Does it specify that it has to be Israel? I think my longstanding difficulty with this has been that a bunch of non-white people were effectively shat upon from a great height. Had a Jewish homeland been somehow created in a white European state, or maybe if it had been developed gradually over time in the middle east, then I personally wouldn't have any discomfort with the situation. And I do feel that a homeland is vital to them and that they should of course have one (as should we all, I suppose). Does that make me a Zionist?

I think the "genuine Jews" comment is leading towards some manner of anti-semitic statement for sure. Is that the main issue? I'm just a bit concerned that the main issue might be the attack on "Zionists". This is of course clearly not antisemitism (and would affect non-Jews in Labour as well, if I understand it correctly).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/15/remain-parties-eu-elections Seems like a no on that front, although fuck knows why.

Yeah we were talking about that poll in the politics thread. I think Labour are at risk of fucking over Remain here if they continue to be totally lacking in clarity. All the other parties have broadly nailed their colours to the mast.

Ignore the fact that we've been back and forth on this to death, because actually what I'm about to ask is a genuine question rather than a challenge. Is that antisemitism?

I mean the alternative seems to be that we accept that comfortably north of 50% of the country is pro-leave, which seems... counter to any polls I've seen?

It's not that, it's just that presumably if they're pro-Brexit, they're backing Brexit parties.

So majority consensus is: Disney need to redeem themselves

Indeed. Labour need to fucking earn that particular statement. It's kind of heartening to see that UKIP's swing to the right has failed to rally any significant support to them though. I would prefer we lost to the Brexit Party than UKIP. Assuming the Labour voter base is almost entirely Remain (big assumption, I know), I think we can infer the following: Leave - 49% Remain - 47% Not sure where the other 4% has gone, maybe on independents?

Are you fucking kidding me. Fuck that shit. "Buy a pass". God damn, Brexit is such a total fuck up that I forget the other, illiberal, utterly farcical bullshit the Tories are capable of.

Already have a VPN but ffs. What is the deal with these again? We have to notify the government that we want to opt in or something? Or ISPs?

I think Cattermole and Oviedo - not stars but on big money. Oviedo I suspect will move on this summer, although as Fish says, Cattermole might be a challenge.

I think if they go up, they will get some manner of further investment - they must have some plan for this. But I also think that spending £4m on Grigg underlines that they're pretty desperate to go up this year. If they don't, I think a lot of the bigger names will be moved on out of absolute necessity - and then they're back at a rebuilding job for next season with a lot of bog standard League One players.

Well said.