Toonpack

C'mon ewerk, you know EXACTLY what he means, it's just his usual but camouflaged diatribe.

One of the stands facia is listed Administrators valued the assetts/land commercially at £100Million, then sold them to the new owner for £5.5Million,(which just so happens to be the amount that covers said administrators fees, the new owner also has previous business links to the "nota fit and proper person" Craig Whyte) the whole thing stinks. Not an outlandish suggestion that HMRC's liquidator will freeze/rewind that transaction when they're fully in charge. HMRC's Liquidator appointed is a heavy duty specialist in forensic liquidation of dubious companies. Expect all previously connected to get a good going over and perhaps some rather large tax bills (including ex players etc).

So we werent fucked pre Hall then thanks for clearing that up.

Tell me ?? Who cares where the 50,000 will go. as it stands they support a team that iminently does not exist, that's really true if the vote is NO. A new club can start but it'll be Rangers 2012, nee history, nothing, except in the minds of the fans. IF Rangers 2012 can get an association membership.

Utter rubbish Anyway we'll find out as they have REALLY dissappeared if there's a NO vote

There's an important difference, those smaller clubs you mention all happen to be English, where the football creditors rule (law) applies, that rule does not exist in Scotland, and the small clubs do, and have, died. Whatever happens if there's a NO vote, Rangers 1872 (or whenever) is absolutely dead (when the liquidator formally winds up) a "new" Rangers 2012 may appear. Gonna have to be significant SFA rule changes to let them in, just needs one other aspiring club, that meets the existing rules, to mount a legal challenge............. That said I reckon the SFA/SFL will kill the SPL and have a massive reorganisation of Scottish Football with a proper pyramid system etc. Where Sevco will fit in, who can say.

The SPL share will evidently pass to Dundee, second in SFL1 SFL Chariman has stated "there is no mechanism for a Newco to enter the 1st Division" All their players are free agents if they don't get paid next week (although the SPFA is arguing they are already free agents) Stevie, if there is a NO vote Sevco 5088 has NO standing as a football entity, it has no association membership (as that's attached to the SPL share and is all currently Oldco ), a primary requirement of application to join the SFA is to produce 3 years audited accounts. As it stands Oldco is a football club in liquidation, Sevco 5088 Ltd happens to own a stadium, a car park and a training facility, and it has fans. It has no football association membership of any sort. it has no bank account even - because it can't have "the name".

Spot on Ewerk And re Ikea. They may have to, currently they really do not exist (well once the liquidation is confirmed) as a football entity. Hearts, Dundee Utd and Aberdeen all officially voting NO, two more formal NO's needed and they are screwed. (Motherwell and St Mirren are all but owned by fan societies and have stated they will vote with the fans wishes, Motherwell fans society recent poll was 97% NO) Hibs chairman has all but said NO consistently stating sporting integrity comes before all. Important point. The vote is about the transfer of the SPL share from Oldco to Newco (not just a simple let Newco in scenario) if the vote is NO, the share stays in the ashes of Oldco. (from where it will be taken and likely given to Dundee - 2nd in SFL1 last saeason). Newco has no SPL membership (if the share don't move) and is also importantly NOT a member of the SFA, it will have to apply for membership and one of the statutes for application for SFA membership is 3 years audited accounts. SFL Chief has already said there is no mechanism for Newco/The Rangers to get into Div 1 (and Rangers Oldco are not members of the SFL anyway they're members of the SPL) it would likely take a vote of all SFL chairmen to let them into Div 1, Div 1 chairmen won't vote them in as they're kissing promotion chances away, SFL 2/3 chairmen no benefit to them at all. Also IF SFA/SFL shortcut their membership and waive some of the conditions, expect all sorts of legal cases from clubs already "in the queue" - there is no Pyramid system in scotland from non-league to the SFL. Additionally The Rangers really don't exist yet, they are called Sevco 5088 (or some such number) the Rangers name cannot be released until the liquidator says so (Liquidator not fully in charge for "some weeks") all other permutations of Rangers are already registered at Companies House (some enterprising Celtic fan I guess). Without an incorporation certificate, Newco can't open a corporate bank account, therefore cannot trade in any way. Players salaries are due next Tuesday, they have no bank account or money and the salalries are still at the level Old Rangers could only pay by witholding tax/NI/VAT. Screwed !!!! Oldco have been taking season ticket money by DD for next year (from some idiots who have renewed and some who just hadn't cancelled their old one) that money is "supposedly" ring fenced for Newco tickets BUT Lloyds (and some legal eagle) have today questioned that is possible and that money collected in the oldco account could be claimed by the creditors of Oldco. No football creditors rule up there so the players have nee chance of getting paid even if they TUPE across to Newco (and amazingly the new owner has yet to meet the players according to the press)- unless the new owner (who evidently is skint) divies up, if they do TUPE over Newco has to honour their existing contracts (the same as the contracts Oldco couldn't afford) if they decline to TUPE they are free agents. I believe the trigger for them definitely being free agents (every single one of them from youth to international) would be not getting paid, although SPFA is already arguing they are free agents. No money, no bank account, no name, no players, only the assetts (ground, training centre and car park) and the fans are left. Speaking of which a "specialist" Police section has alledgedly visited the HMRC offices involved and placed them on high alert for "suspicious packages".

Don't think so..... Cut and paste from a board "up North" Rangers need 8 yes votes from the 12 So we need 5 to say no. Probable No Votes - 8 Aberdeen - "A large number of our supporters have made their views and feelings very clear and as a club I can assure everyone that these are being taken into account. The integrity of sport in general, and football in particular, must be central to any decision." Celtic - Surely it would be commercial suicide for Celtic to do anything other than vote No, and given that it looks like the No's have a majority, it seems highly unlikely they'd risk a Yes. (Celtic fan groups are threatening to boycott any away games at "yes" clubs). Dundee Utd - "Dundee United...cannot vote the newco into the SPL." Club Statement - NO Hearts - "Supporters deserve a new beginning and have to accept the fact that their club has to start from the lower league, keeping order in the SPL and without creating unfair competition with other clubs." lub Statement - NO Hibernian - Rod Petrie (Chairman) "Fundamental to us at our club is to make sure the integrity of the game is not called into question and that the sporting integrity of the competition we take part in is maintained at the highest standards. It’s not a question of any sum of money in return for that integrity – integrity is beyond purchase." Been NO from the start ICT - "Our final decision on the issue will be taken based on the views of supporters and the Supporters Trust combined with what we think is best for our club from a business perspective and for Scottish football in general." Motherwell - "We will therefore hold a ballot of adult ‘Well Society Members and the small number of existing minority shareholders who have yet to join the society, on a ‘one member/shareholder-one vote’ basis." So "No". (97% No in a poll of the Society members) St Mirren - Looks like this is a fan vote since they achieved their funding target and submitted their takeover bid. so "No". Unknowns Ross County - I'm yet to see any quotes either way. Yes votes - 3 Killie - Michael Johnston "Members see the commercial benefits of having Rangers, even as a newco. The clubs are mindful of a sporting integrity aspect, but the commercial benefits may outweigh that." Killie may just have shot themselves with that statement. Oldco Rangers - well... St Johnstone - Steven Brown has stated he won't let Rangers in "without sanctions". so basically a Yes. Also, Fans hammered again (possibly) They've been taking season ticket money on last years DD's and of course some have renewed anyway (idiots) and: Herald; Creditors retain claim on Rangers season-ticket cash http://www.heraldsco...t-cash.17946985 "The process of securing the season ticket funds requires legal agreements from Duff & Phelps, who currently run the oldco's business, BDO, who will move in as liquidators, and a guarantee from Green's newco. The process could take as long as six weeks to ensure proper protections are in place, meaning that the current funds are part of the oldco's assets and, so, within reach of the creditors, despite Green's assurances to the contrary to the Rangers Fans Fighting Fund in a private and confidential meeting last Wednesday night, and then again in a statement yesterday. Having set up the newco, direct debit mandates should have been sent out to all supporters informing them of a change in the banking details and requiring them to sign the mandates before money could be taken out by the newco. However, Sevco have been unable to arrange corporate banking facilities." Sevco is Newco's company name btw. Can't get the Rangers name until it's released by liquidator, thus can't get incorporation certificate so cant get company bank account. Players wages due next Tuesday (which are at a level they could only afford by witholding Tax/NI and VAT in the first place). Tick Tock.................................

Facts based upon the comparison of chalk and cheese, aye righty-o

Totally destroyed that premise ages ago, again you drag up old rubbish arguments. You cannot compare commercial enterprise to football clubs, commercial companies have "customers" football clubs have fans (and rather "protective" laws - in England and Wales anyway). Beyond ridiculous.

Spot on

No. Your whole post based on a twist (for a change) desperately trying to reawaked the "old" subject. Liquidation is as bad as it gets for any company. You seem to believe it's OK because the fans will remain (which they will) irrespective of the offence/outcome. Basically what you are saying is Rangers (in some form) in the highland league (for example) is fine and no bad thing "for the times they enjoyed in the past". If that "fall" is due to "clean" football reasons I would agree, it's one of those things, if it's through financial mismanagement, that IMO is a whole different ball game.

That was just his EBT "take" btw The problems mount: http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/prospective-buyers-are-a-timely-coincidence-as-problems-mount-for-green.17936613

They are being liquidated, what more is there. Like any company that is liquidated, the "brand" may be bought and re-launched. That tbh is a fairly serious thing. With the charges against them it is not inconceivable that they really could cease to be. What if the liquidators freeze the assett sale and then sell piecemeal to highest bidder, not inconceivable. Then again if someone starts FC Rangers of Glasgow in a Sunday league you'll contest Rangers FC still exist. Fans of what was Airdrionians will at least be enjoying this, as they ceased to exist, because David Murray/Rangers refused a CVA for £30K owed stating "clubs must live within their means and if they cannot, I must look after Rangers" delicious irony. No football creditors rule up north (and there shouldn't be down here), several clubs have really ceased to be. But hey, it's all fine in LM world.

He made over £600K from his few months at Rangers via his EBT (as per the BBC)

Ok so cheating and fraud is fine, so long as you "enjoy it at the time" and the consequences are of no importance. The Rangers fans who've been going through the mincer since February-ish, are sure to agree !!!!!!! Especially if much of what they "enjoyed" is taken away. Unbelievable.

That's what the rule said, but it's one of those things that's probably "from this day forward" type rules, anyone through the gate before that is OK. Dunno when it was stipulated. You right on the rest like, football chairman - especially if the huns would start (as they would have to) low down, will be rubbing their hands.

Struggle to see why that's relevant, but maybe soon, two property developers (both millionaire Celtic ST holders) have made an £11 Mill offer to the "new" owner to buy the "assetts". Do you think what Rangers have done is acceptable and the situation they are in is "perfectly fine"??

There has been some some argument about that, but it is the "company" which is being liquidated. So the debts etc can't be pursued through the new company (unless of course HMRC's liquidators decide Newco is phoenix company - doubtfull that'll happen, although playing in blue at Ibrox and having the word Rangers in the name, you could make a case !!). However, Newco want to transfer the SPL share (that's what the vote is) from Oldco, along with the SFA membership (which constitutes the "club") the footballing penalties are attached to the football membership entity (club) and NOT the corporate entity, that seems to be the prevailing view. Also the SPL chairman has stated that if The Rangers want to transfer the share they must accept any penalties attached to said share.

This is obviously all over message boards up North, someone posted the relevant FA regulation about teams playing in England joining the EFL/FA. It states along the lines that the team must play all its home games in England or have its HQ in England (that second bit could be a loophole). Doubt it’ll happen though. Newco – has no money, can’t get a bank account, can’t call itself Rangers (as per companies house until the Liquidator releases the trademark) some clever bugger has registered all the likely “other” permutations of Rangers alreadyand has no players. On 26th of this month the players salaries are due, they still belong to Oldco, which also has no money (hence it is going into liquidation). Players could TUPE across to Newco, but then Newco as said, has no money, can’t issue ST requests etc etc. not to mention the fact that they could only meet their wage bill by not paying tax, NI or Vat in the first place. Players could choose just to walk. They don’t know where they’ll be playing (even if staying up North), they still face: SFA tribunal for non-payment of tax which found them guilty but had the “halfway house” penalty they imposed overturned in civil court (UEFA and FIFA thrilled!!!). Possible sanctions – banned from cup (already stated by tribunal as too slight a punishment) or expulsion/suspension. SPL Vote – 8 clubs needed to say yes, even if they get a yes could be suspended by the tribunal. If no they have to apply to SFL to enter the third. EBT tribunal into illegal payments (over entire history of SPL and before – although SPL can only investigate SPL transgressions obviously) Prima Facia case to answer was the SPL phrase. This covers ineligible players over years in all competitions, expect UEFA etc to be VERY interested in that one (especially given the going to court “own goal”). Sanctions unlimited, likely at least to be stripped of all honours involving ineligibles. Potentially opens the way for numerous damages claims from teams thwarted by “illegal” means. Liquidators not yet fully in control, strong expectation they’ll freeze the asset sale from Oldco to Newco, on the premise How could the administrators formally value the clubs assets (not including playing staff) at over £100 Million and then sell them (in the best possible deal for the creditors, supposedly) for £5.5 Million. Oh and previous owner (Craig Whyte) according to Thomson, still owns 85% of Oldco as the CVA was rejected, his father evidently holds a floating charge over Ibrox, Training Centre and car park, which are the main assets. All of that has to be sorted in about 6 weeks for Rangers to play anywhere.

Update From "up north" "From the person that brought us the news that Rangers were tatties … SPL dotting I’s and Crossing T’s to ensure it is watertight Mark Daly (BBC reporter who did the Panorama expose) has been interviewed by SPL to corroborate the evidence as more high profile figures to be implicated in a massive fraud scandal, Offshore bank accounts in different names (smith, sally) Traynor involved Sportsound team being interview at BBC to see if there were involved (dodds wont work for BBC again) As CVA didnt go through whyte still owns 85% of oldco BDO has consulted court of session on how to proceed with criminal charges. Sir Walter walked away due to being now implicated in the tax fraud. Dundee Utd, season ticket sales currently 1,700 compared to 4,300 end of June last year. They're waiting for the vote. Based on what seems to be comming out up there, just hope we don't get any backwash from messrs Souness,McKay and Boumsong. The Rangers won't likely play any football next season, thereafter who knows. They have been charged by the SPL with a prima facia case to answer on the double contracts. As per Alex Thomson (twitter): https://twitter.com/#!/alextomo Lawyer connected to fmr Rangers manager tells #c4news "there's a massive fraud in Rangers waiting to come out" Souness's lawyer will ask him soonest why he got EBT 30k 10y after leaving fmr RFC? If Souness answers/refuses, you'll know either way.

Engalnd will win the whole thing, it's written in the stars, just like Chelsea did "against the odds" (and Greece and Denmark have done before). Park the bus and hit em on the break.

If you're out in the sticks and watch the night sky with no ambient light, apart from being an absolutely amazing sight, you can see the fuckers with the naked eye moving in their orbits.

I suppose Duff and Phelps argument will be that there was no transfer window in which to be able to realise a return and the fact the players took a 75% cut in wages offset any "gains" from letting any go. I did read somewhere that they had a ridiculous number of professionals on the books. Bastards hoover up all and any young talent/prospects who probably would develop better with games at lower clubs, to the players and other clubs benefits. No wonder the national team is gash.