Official Formula 1 thread

[Craig 6308]

I acknowledge that one Dr Ken and you know from the fact that Gilles was my favourite driver of all time that I do have an affection for Ferrari...

 

But the way the FIA brown-nose them is ridiculous. They seem to think that F1 cannot exist without Ferrari and I'm convinced if the roles had been reversed there's no way the punishment would be the same.

 

They hold Ferrari in the same 'over-elevated' fashion as they do Monaco and the fact that the F1 calendar has to be arranged around the demands of the Crown Prince.

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

McLaren received a systematic flow of information from a spy within rivals Ferrari for nearly three months this year, the FIA has revealed.

 

Drivers Fernando Alonso and Pedro de la Rosa were aware of the information.

 

It was the possession of this "highly sensitive" data that led the FIA to fine McLaren £49.2m and deduct their constructors' championship points.

 

The information came to McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan from Ferrari chief mechanic Nigel Stepney.

 

The data McLaren received over the three-month period concerned the Ferrari car's brakes, weight distribution, aerodynamic balance and tyre inflation.

 

In a 16-page document, the FIA said e-mails showed that test driver De la Rosa and reigning world champion Alonso had been aware of the Ferrari data.

 

"The emails show unequivocally that both Mr Alonso and Mr de la Rosa received confidential Ferrari information via Mike Coughlan.

 

"Both drivers knew that this information was confidential Ferrari information and that both knew that the information was being received by Coughlan from Nigel Stepney," the report states.

 

In what is being viewed as the most damning section of the report, the FIA has published an e-mail exchange between De la Rosa and Alonso.

 

"All the information from Ferrari is very reliable," De la Rosa wrote to Alonso on 25 March in an exchange about the Ferrari's weight distribution.

 

"It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic - I don't know what post he holds now.

 

"He's the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi (Raikkonen) was stopping in lap 18. He's very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our chief designer and he told him that."

 

These are the main points raised in the statement on the FIA website:

 

*

Coughlan had more information than previously appreciated

 

*

Information included sensitive technical information and sporting strategy

 

*

De la Rosa requested and received secret Ferrari data

 

*

The information was shared with Alonso

 

*

Intention by McLaren personnel to use data in their own testing

 

McLaren boss Ron Dennis revealed after the decision that he had tipped off the FIA about evidence that ultimately led to sucha huge fine.

 

"Once I became aware that new evidence might exist, which I did on the morning of the Hungarian Grand Prix (5 August), I immediately phoned the FIA to keep them informed," he said.

 

The extent of the information Coughlan received about the Ferrari goes far beyond what was revealed at a first meeting of the FIA's world motorsport council in July.

 

At that time, the FIA decided not to punish McLaren because there was no proof the information had been used "in such a way as to interfere with the running of the FIA F1 world championship".

 

But the new evidence persuaded the world council to change its verdict at Thursday's meeting.

 

De la Rosa revealed plans to test Ferrari's weight distribution in McLaren's simulator, plans that were later abandoned.

 

It was revealed that Alonso agreed it was "very important" that McLaren tried out the gas Ferrari were using to inflate their car's tyres.

 

It also emerged that De la Rosa had asked Coughlan for specific details of Ferrari's braking system, and that the designer revealed to the test driver "we are looking at something similar".

 

The document appears to explode the view that this was only a case of two rogue employees using the information to find better jobs at other teams, and that the confidential information had not been circulated within McLaren, as the team contended at the first world council meeting.

 

The world council said it had decided to inflict such a heavy punishment on McLaren because "there was an intention on the part of a number of McLaren personnel to use some of the Ferrari confidential information in its own testing".

 

It added: "The evidence leads the WMSC to conclude that some degree of sporting advantage was obtained, though it may forever be impossible to quantify that advantage in concrete terms."

 

Dennis insisted that his personal future with McLaren had "never been in doubt" and dismissed any thought that the size of the fine could threaten his team's future.

 

"Firstly, we will effectively still have as an offset the revenue from the points earned to date," said Dennis.

 

"That will effectively half the size of the cheque we have to sign, if we ultimately accept this fine.

 

"But, as you can see if you read our accounts, we turn over roughly US$450-500m a year, and we are debt-free, so obviously we are a very strong company with phenomenal growth."

 

McLaren are still to decide whether they will appeal against the judgment.

 

Well that blows holes in Ron Dennis's claim that his team were being besmirched. Although I respect him for coming clean when the evidence came to light.

 

I agree Craig that the punishment seems harsh, but they knowingly cheated. Any Mclaren championship victory this season (or next) is going to be a tarnished one.

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

By the way, although I'm clearly biased I acknowledge that if things were the other way round Ferrari probably would have received a lighter punishment. And I know that they have bent the rules in the past and received sympathetic treatment.

[RlCO 0]

Ron Dennis:

 

"Ah well, we've already covered half the fine with our dodgy cars this year, and we're minted anyway, so fuckit"

[Craig 6308]

Ron Dennis:

 

"Ah well, we've already covered half the fine with our dodgy cars this year, and we're minted anyway, so fuckit"

 

Considering he had no involvement in what's gone on, he's got to look at what's salvagable. The team he's been running the past 30 years and who he turned into a profitable well respected company is finding its name dragged through the mud because of 3 people who work for them.

 

He must be fucking livid tbh - I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when he realised Alonso and De La Rosa were in on it.

 

5th August he found out wasn't it? That was the day after Alonso had done his move of stupidity in the pit lane which he got penalised for. Wonder if the two are connected?

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

Dennis reveals rift with Alonso

 

McLaren boss Ron Dennis has revealed he and driver Fernando Alonso have not spoken since the Hungarian Grand Prix.

 

At the time, Alonso threatened to reveal evidence in the spy row, which eventually led to McLaren being fined and losing their constructors' points.

 

Dennis told last week's 'spygate' hearing, whose transcripts are now public: "We're not on speaking terms.

 

"We've not spoken. The relationship between Fernando and I is extremely cold - that is an understatement."

 

At the weekend's Belgian Grand Prix, Dennis said: "My job is to win the World Championship, my job isn't for people to love and hug me.

 

"If I have difficult relationships with people I have difficult relationships with them."

 

Contacted after the transcripts were made public, a McLaren spokeswoman said she did not know if Dennis and Alonso spoke last weekend.

 

The relationship between Alonso and Dennis was put under severe strain after a bust-up on the morning of the Hungary race on 5 August.

 

That was the day after the controversial qualifying session that led to Alonso being dumped from pole to sixth on the grid after being found guilty of deliberately blocking team-mate Lewis Hamilton.

 

During the row, Alonso threatened to go to the FIA with evidence, but Dennis then phoned FIA president Max Mosley himself.

 

At the resulting hearing in Paris last week, McLaren were fined £49.2m and stripped of their constructors' championship points.

 

Dennis also revealed that Alonso had deliberately not attended the Paris hearing, even though the Spaniard had been asked to by the team.

 

"Mr Alonso is not here because he does not want to be here," Dennis told the hearing.

 

"He does not speak to anyone much. He is a remarkable recluse for a driver. He is not here by choice.

 

"Moreover, he said he had other things to do by previous arrangement. I cannot force him to come. We asked him to come."

 

Hamilton did travel to Paris to support his team, and transcripts from the hearing also revealed that the Briton's lawyer argued the rookie should not be thrown out of the world drivers' championship.

 

"Lewis Hamilton has done nothing wrong," the driver's counsel Mark Phillips QC told the World Motor Sport Council.

 

"He has driven brilliantly and is leading the drivers' championship. If McLaren were banned from competing in the remaining races, Lewis Hamilton would not be able to compete in the final four races.

 

"He would lose the points that he has so brilliantly won over the last few months, to the sheer delight and excitement of millions of ordinary motor racing fans.

 

"Let him get back to the track, to become the first rookie world champion in Formula One history."

 

While Hamilton's position at McLaren seems assured, the latest revelations cast further doubt on Alonso remaining with the team for the remaining two years of his contract.

 

Dennis explained in the hearing that Alonso's feelings are based on his belief that his status as world champion should give him an elevated status at McLaren.

 

"In Fernando's mind, there is the firm belief that our policy, whereby each driver receives equal treatment, doe not properly reflect his status as world champion," Dennis said.

 

"He bases this assertion on the fact that his experience and knowledge and what came to him from his former team is such that he should receive an advantage."

Edited September 20, 2007 by Dr Kenneth Noisewater

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

Tremendous drive from Hamilton, Alonso crashed out (which was a shame ), a really good battle through the field in appalling conditions from Kimi and did you see Massa and Kubica on the last lap? Shades of Gilles and Arnoux in Dijon.

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

With fantastic Japanese commentary:

 

and from Massa's point of view:

[Meenzer 14064]

Looks like McLaren's #1 driver is going to win the championship then.

[Ketsbaia 0]

With fantastic Japanese commentary:

 

and from Massa's point of view:

 

How F1 should be raced tbh

[RlCO 0]

I can't get upset at the massive cock face that is Alonso crashing and ruining his chances.

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

Alonso wants split from Hamilton

 

Fernando Alonso says he would rather not continue alongside Lewis Hamilton at McLaren next year.

 

The Spaniard, set to lose the title to his team-mate, said: "I'd be delighted if I didn't carry on with Hamilton."

 

"If we are not together next season and I can go to a good car, then great. If we have to carry on together then we will have another great battle."

 

Meanwhile, Renault team boss Flavio Briatore has confirmed he has offered Alonso his old job back.

 

"I told Fernando that the moment he is free from McLaren we would be pleased to have him back," said Briatore.

 

Briatore is convinced Alonso would not have quit Renault if he had been aware he would receive the same treatment as a rookie.

 

"If, before signing the contract, they told Fernando, 'Come with us, but you won't have any sort of advantage', he wouldn't have gone," Briatore told Italian newspaper Gazzetta dello Sport.

 

"If you hire a world champion, then you must give him the number one status."

 

The relationship between the two McLaren drivers deteriorated after Hamilton criticised Alonso last week.

 

Alonso, who was speaking in an interview with Spanish radio station SER, also denied speculation he could take 2008 off, returning to Formula One to drive for Ferrari when his McLaren contract runs out in two years' time.

 

"It hasn't entered into my plans not to race next year," he said.

 

"I don't have any news about Ferrari. They have a contract with Kimi Raikkonen and Felipe Massa for next year, it's not a possibility that has entered into my thoughts for the coming year."

 

Hamilton says he would rather Alonso was not still at McLaren next year, even if it meant the double world champion ending up at Ferrari.

 

"I'd much rather it were Fernando at Ferrari and me at McLaren," said Hamilton prior to winning at Fuji Speedway on Sunday.

 

Alonso's relationship with McLaren team boss Ron Dennis has broken down after a series of disagreements during the year.

 

It reached a low point during a row at the Hungarian Grand Prix in August over Alonso's status in the team.

 

Alonso threatened during the row to reveal incriminating e-mail evidence about McLaren's involvement in the spy row that has dominated the sport this summer to the sport's governing body, the FIA.

 

He quickly apologised and withdrew the threat, but not before Dennis had telephoned FIA president Max Mosley to tell him of the conversation.

 

It ultimately led to McLaren being thrown out of this year's constructors' championship and fined £49.2m for having confidential Ferrari technical information in their possession.

 

And Hamilton has turned up the pressure on McLaren to tear up Alonso's contract, which still has two years to run, by saying he sees a long-term future at the team.

[Craig 6308]

I fully expect BMW to renage on their driver line up for 2008 and we'll see Alonso partnering Heidfeld (BMW would never drop the German).

 

Begs the question as to who would get the second McLaren seat. Cautious money would be on De La Rosa I'd guess but he hardly set the world alight when he stepped in for Fat Boy...

 

I'd love to see Jenson there, he deserves his chance in a decent car IMO.

[Ketsbaia 0]

I fully expect BMW to renage on their driver line up for 2008 and we'll see Alonso partnering Heidfeld (BMW would never drop the German).

 

Begs the question as to who would get the second McLaren seat. Cautious money would be on De La Rosa I'd guess but he hardly set the world alight when he stepped in for Fat Boy...

 

I'd love to see Jenson there, he deserves his chance in a decent car IMO.

 

De la Rosa and Paffett seem all but nailed on for the Prodrive seats.

 

I think Alonso will go back to Renault and Kovalainen will go the other way

[Craig 6308]

I fully expect BMW to renage on their driver line up for 2008 and we'll see Alonso partnering Heidfeld (BMW would never drop the German).

 

Begs the question as to who would get the second McLaren seat. Cautious money would be on De La Rosa I'd guess but he hardly set the world alight when he stepped in for Fat Boy...

 

I'd love to see Jenson there, he deserves his chance in a decent car IMO.

 

De la Rosa and Paffett seem all but nailed on for the Prodrive seats.

 

I think Alonso will go back to Renault and Kovalainen will go the other way

 

Everything seems to have gone quiet on the Prodrive front - I was expecting some reference to it when Dave Richards had his helicopter crash but there was nothing. I keep forgetting they're in from next year...

 

If Alonso heads back to Renault, I can see Fisi being the one to go - Kovalainen is one of Flav's own, is he not?

[Ketsbaia 0]

I fully expect BMW to renage on their driver line up for 2008 and we'll see Alonso partnering Heidfeld (BMW would never drop the German).

 

Begs the question as to who would get the second McLaren seat. Cautious money would be on De La Rosa I'd guess but he hardly set the world alight when he stepped in for Fat Boy...

 

I'd love to see Jenson there, he deserves his chance in a decent car IMO.

 

De la Rosa and Paffett seem all but nailed on for the Prodrive seats.

 

I think Alonso will go back to Renault and Kovalainen will go the other way

 

Everything seems to have gone quiet on the Prodrive front - I was expecting some reference to it when Dave Richards had his helicopter crash but there was nothing. I keep forgetting they're in from next year...

 

If Alonso heads back to Renault, I can see Fisi being the one to go - Kovalainen is one of Flav's own, is he not?

 

I don't think he really has any long standing relationship with Renault apart from his year or two of testing.

 

In reality Fisi and Kovalainen could leave, the former going to Toyota and the latter going to McLaren with Alonso and Piquet Jr. stepping in.

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

I think Alonso will go back to Renault and Kovalainen will go the other way

That's what I think too.

[RlCO 0]

"Firstly, we consider at Prodrive that our route to be competitive in F1 is to partner an existing team - frankly, I don't have the patience to set up a team from scratch and flog around at the back of the grid for five years.

 

"And as far as Aston Martin is concerned, it is a product that is still in its infancy. It is still developing as a brand. There is a great range of cars, but there is a long way to go before it is in a place where an involvement in F1 could benefit the brand. Today we sell all the cars we produce. We need a proper cross-section of products and only then can we start to look at what we can do to extend the reach of the brand further.

 

"You would also have to look at the damage it could do to go into F1 and get it wrong. There are other issues for Aston Martin without worrying about something as dramatic as Formula One motor racing."

 

-Dave

 

 

 

Ah come on man! It didn't do Bently/MG any harm. How cool would it be to have Lewis Hamilton driving an Aston Martin!

[Craig 6308]

I fully expect BMW to renage on their driver line up for 2008 and we'll see Alonso partnering Heidfeld (BMW would never drop the German).

 

Begs the question as to who would get the second McLaren seat. Cautious money would be on De La Rosa I'd guess but he hardly set the world alight when he stepped in for Fat Boy...

 

I'd love to see Jenson there, he deserves his chance in a decent car IMO.

 

De la Rosa and Paffett seem all but nailed on for the Prodrive seats.

 

I think Alonso will go back to Renault and Kovalainen will go the other way

 

Everything seems to have gone quiet on the Prodrive front - I was expecting some reference to it when Dave Richards had his helicopter crash but there was nothing. I keep forgetting they're in from next year...

 

If Alonso heads back to Renault, I can see Fisi being the one to go - Kovalainen is one of Flav's own, is he not?

 

I don't think he really has any long standing relationship with Renault apart from his year or two of testing.

 

In reality Fisi and Kovalainen could leave, the former going to Toyota and the latter going to McLaren with Alonso and Piquet Jr. stepping in.

 

Along the same lines, I've heard that Ralf will be 'leaving' Toyota at the end of the season....

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

Hamilton faces Japan win inquiry

 

Formula One officials are investigating Lewis Hamilton's victory in Sunday's Japanese Grand Prix following complaints about erratic driving.

 

Red Bull's Mark Webber has accused the Englishman of doing a "bad job" behind the safety car after being knocked out of the race while following Hamilton.

 

Hamilton's win at Fuji gave him a 12-point lead and put him on the verge of winning the world championship.

 

If he is found guilty, he could have his points from Japan erased.

 

BBC 5live commentator David Croft, who is at the Chinese Grand Prix for this weekend's race, says there are also suggestions that Hamilton may be penalised 10 places on the grid in Shanghai.

 

F1 officials are expected to make a decision on Friday.

 

Webber was knocked out of the race by Toro Rosso's Sebastian Vettel while they were following Hamilton, and the Australian believes Hamilton braked excessively while they were following the safety car on lap 45.

 

Webber almost overtook Hamilton as the McLaren driver slowed and moved to the right while following the safety car before an unsighted Vettel hit the Red Bull.

 

The evidence is believed to be footage filmed from the grandstands at Fuji which appeared on video website YouTube.

 

"Hamilton did a bad job behind the safety car," said Webber.

 

"He was not doing what he should have been doing, the rhythm was not there.

 

"It's hard to swallow, but I have to concentrate on the next race, that's all I can control."

 

He added in an interview with BBC 5live: "Lewis did a great job in the race and deserved to win it, but I'm not sure he did such a great job behind the safety car.

 

"Part of me wonders whether he showed a little bit of naivety, while part of me wonders whether he had a few tricks up his sleeve. I'd say it was probably a bit of both.

 

"I can understand a few tricks when the lights are off, but when the lights are on it means we're going nowhere behind the safety car.

 

"In dry conditions my Mum can follow Lewis behind the safety car - it's nothing special. The job of the guy who is leading behind the safety to car is to follow the safety car - and when you don't do that it causes problems."

 

Honda's Jenson Button felt Hamilton did not drive well behind the safety car in the opening 19 laps of the race either.

 

The Briton, who was fourth at the time, said: "When I was behind him it felt really inconsistent, I don't know what he was doing really.

 

"He came through the last section and he kept slowing down.

 

"He knew the safety car wasn't coming in and he kept hitting the brakes hard in the last sector so everyone would bunch up, then he'd shoot off and brake again," added the Briton.

 

"It was quite strange and it normally only happened in the last sector."

 

German driver Vettel echoed Webber's comments in criticising Hamilton.

 

"It was my fault, but it is clear the rhythm was not there," he said.

 

"We are all sitting in the same boat. At the point [of the crash) I was distracted, looking to the right.

 

"I was sure Hamilton was retiring, he seemed to have no power any longer, but by the time I looked back, I was already in Mark's rear end."

 

F1 regulations state: "The safety car shall be used at least until the leader is behind it and all remaining cars are lined up behind him.

 

"Once behind the safety car, the race leader must keep within five car lengths of it."

 

Hamilton almost overtakes the safety car and then pretty much stops. Webber is then in danger of overtaking the race leader and brakes on the inside at which point Vettel goes into the back of him. (Vettel was watching Lewis and thought he had a problem and must have been expecting Webber to accelerate ahead on the inside whereas, in fact, he braked)

[Ketsbaia 0]

Christ, what is wrong with the FIA? It took them nearly five days to decide they may have to take action

[Ketsbaia 0]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_QJurnfxRm4

 

Your video seems to be fucked, Craig.

 

Looks like a load of toss to me. It's a racing incident.

Edited October 4, 2007 by Skol

[Craig 6308]

It's a fucking crap rule - the lights on the safety car are switched off on the lap before it is coming in. So long as the cars are in formation when it peels off, there shouldn't be any ruling to prevent them drifting ahead of each other in my book.

 

They have no problem with it happening on the formation lap, so why under safety car conditions??

 

They caused themselves a problem by penalising Vettel IMO.

[Jimbo 133]

Hamilton on Pole !!!

 

Final qualfying positions for China GP:

1. Lewis Hamilton (GB) McLaren 1 min 35.908 seconds

2. Kimi Raikkonen (Fin) Ferrari 1:36.044

3. Felipe Massa (Bra) Ferrari 1:36.221

4. Fernando Alonso (Spa) McLaren 1:36.576

5. David Coulthard (GB) Red Bull 1:37.619

6. Ralf Schumacher (Ger) Toyota 1:38.013

7. Mark Webber (Aus) Red Bull 1:38.153

8. Nick Heidfeld (Ger) BMW Sauber 1:38.455

9. Robert Kubica (Pol) BMW Sauber 1:38.472

10. Jenson Button (GB) Honda 1:39.285

11. Vitantonio Liuzzi (Ita) Toro Rosso 1:36.862

12. Sebastian Vettel (Ger) Toro Rosso 1:36.891

13. Jarno Trulli (Ita) Toyota 1:36.959

14. Heikki Kovalainen (Fin) Renault 1:36.991

15. Anthony Davidson (GB) Super Aguri 1:37.247

16. Nico Rosberg (Ger) Williams-BMW 1:37.483

17. Rubens Barrichello (Bra) Honda 1:37.251

18. Giancarlo Fisichella (Ita) Renault 1:37.290

19. Alexander Wurz (Aut) Williams-BMW 1:37.456

20. Takuma Sato (Jap) Super Aguri 1:38.218

21. Adrian Sutil (Ger) Spyker 1:38.668

22. Sakon Yamamoto (Jap) Spyker 1:39.336

[Ketsbaia 0]

I'm pretty sure he'll be a fueled a few laps shorter but he just really needs to beat Alonso.