UK Sailors captured by the Iranian Government

[luckyluke 1]

the problem is no-one has agreed EXACTLy where Iraq stops and Iran starts - in some cases the boundary runs down the middle of the channel and in other son one side or the other - or through the islands

 

It is (to use the Geographers term) neither demarcated nor delineated

 

Its very easy to get into trouble in such cases

 

 

Which is true, except even in the earlier incident the British forces were well into "their" side of things (as was eventually proven beyond all doubt once they managed to get enough of their equipment back – which was probably another reason the Iranians were so reluctant to hand back their equipment for so long, but they time they did no one was interested that the Iranian’s had trespassed and basically committed an act of war and/or piracy. ).

 

In this latest case the Iranians were ridiculously into waters not belonging to them (as it is was in the more open sea area not the delta were things get more tricky).

 

 

 

Of course the Iranians know that the British forces are ordered to act "passively", thereby being unable to do anything but be captured in the case of mild threat from them (although apparently this policy is now under review as it's resulted in incidents like this twice now – it just doesn’t look good for UK forces to repeatedly go though that, and in the end they will have to change policy to stop it, even if the other result is firing on or even sinking Iranian boats to do so).

 

Plus as I said it is such a HUGE propaganda victory for them (one of the "captured" gun boats was put in their revolutionary war museum last time).

 

Make no mistake the Iranian forces are looking for these opportunities to "capture" UK forces, even if it means trespassing quite a long way into Iraqi waters to do so.

 

Shifty buggers.

[Fop 1]

the problem is no-one has agreed EXACTLy where Iraq stops and Iran starts - in some cases the boundary runs down the middle of the channel and in other son one side or the other - or through the islands

 

It is (to use the Geographers term) neither demarcated nor delineated

 

Its very easy to get into trouble in such cases

 

 

Which is true, except even in the earlier incident the British forces were well into "their" side of things (as was eventually proven beyond all doubt once they managed to get enough of their equipment back – which was probably another reason the Iranians were so reluctant to hand back their equipment for so long, but they time they did no one was interested that the Iranian’s had trespassed and basically committed an act of war and/or piracy. ).

 

In this latest case the Iranians were ridiculously into waters not belonging to them (as it is was in the more open sea area not the delta were things get more tricky).

 

 

 

Of course the Iranians know that the British forces are ordered to act "passively", thereby being unable to do anything but be captured in the case of mild threat from them (although apparently this policy is now under review as it's resulted in incidents like this twice now – it just doesn’t look good for UK forces to repeatedly go though that, and in the end they will have to change policy to stop it, even if the other result is firing on or even sinking Iranian boats to do so).

 

Plus as I said it is such a HUGE propaganda victory for them (one of the "captured" gun boats was put in their revolutionary war museum last time).

 

Make no mistake the Iranian forces are looking for these opportunities to "capture" UK forces, even if it means trespassing quite a long way into Iraqi waters to do so.

 

Shifty buggers.

 

I wouldn't want to play poker against them, they certainly know how to get the very best out of any hand delt to them.

[Park Life 70]

the problem is no-one has agreed EXACTLy where Iraq stops and Iran starts - in some cases the boundary runs down the middle of the channel and in other son one side or the other - or through the islands

 

It is (to use the Geographers term) neither demarcated nor delineated

 

Its very easy to get into trouble in such cases

 

 

Which is true, except even in the earlier incident the British forces were well into "their" side of things (as was eventually proven beyond all doubt once they managed to get enough of their equipment back – which was probably another reason the Iranians were so reluctant to hand back their equipment for so long, but they time they did no one was interested that the Iranian’s had trespassed and basically committed an act of war and/or piracy. ).

 

In this latest case the Iranians were ridiculously into waters not belonging to them (as it is was in the more open sea area not the delta were things get more tricky).

 

 

 

Of course the Iranians know that the British forces are ordered to act "passively", thereby being unable to do anything but be captured in the case of mild threat from them (although apparently this policy is now under review as it's resulted in incidents like this twice now – it just doesn’t look good for UK forces to repeatedly go though that, and in the end they will have to change policy to stop it, even if the other result is firing on or even sinking Iranian boats to do so).

 

Plus as I said it is such a HUGE propaganda victory for them (one of the "captured" gun boats was put in their revolutionary war museum last time).

 

Make no mistake the Iranian forces are looking for these opportunities to "capture" UK forces, even if it means trespassing quite a long way into Iraqi waters to do so.

 

Shifty buggers.

 

I wouldn't want to play poker against them, they certainly know how to get the very best out of any hand delt to them.

 

 

Blair's getting tough. Must be released in a few days....He says.

[Fop 1]

Actually it's pretty amazing, but if you read current public comments (from anywhere) about this issue the vast majority believe that the last lot taken (in 2004) were in Iranian waters.

 

Even though in the end they were proven to not have been, people weren't interested in such a non-story many months later, so the initial claim, however false, has STUCK.

 

I'm always amazed at how well Iran play the media game, not only in their own country (which is truly masterful, it would make Goebbels weep with joy) and the immediate area, but also to the world stage.

 

Again so long as they make absolute verification of the position impossible for a good 6+ months of so after the issue, again they will (in global public consciousness anyway) have made a completely false fact true, it’s very impressive really.

[Rob W 0]

Fop

 

Do you have a source for the evidence that our lads were in the correct place?

 

I'm really interested as navigational cock-ups are a bit of a hobby horse of mine................

[Ketsbaia 0]

Fop

 

Do you have a source for the evidence that our lads were in the correct place?

 

I'm really interested as navigational cock-ups are a bit of a hobby horse of mine................

 

As is fucking everything else it would seem

[manc-mag 1]

Fop

 

Do you have a source for the evidence that our lads were in the correct place?

 

I'm really interested as navigational cock-ups are a bit of a hobby horse of mine................

 

As is fucking everything else it would seem

 

[Fop 1]

Fop

 

Do you have a source for the evidence that our lads were in the correct place?

 

I'm really interested as navigational cock-ups are a bit of a hobby horse of mine................

 

 

I'll have to have a look to see if there's any direct statements about it knocking about on the internet, there's a couple of second hand statements about it to do with the current abduction.

 

When it was initially released it was a complete non-news item, Iran had kept hold of the gear for so long that by the time they got enough of it back that they could conclusively prove it (although they always said it, just Iran was believed by people that wanted to I guess - much like now really), it was a completely dead news item, a page 33 one paragraph piece (which as I said was most probably Iran's intent all along).

 

 

The big difference between 2004 and now is more that the Iranians could have (arguably at least - in reality the probably knew what they were doing) been confused in 2004 and genuinely believe their were in their waters (as it was somewhat close and within the delta area).

But the current abduction took place further out in open waters, where really they (Iran) must have known exactly what they were doing (and in fact the UK troops are probably operating under the old gulf security UN sanction that has nothing to do with events in Iraq of the last few years as such come to think of it).

 

 

As I said I think the big change that will come out of it will be a change to the "passive" orders, but that may well mean casualties on one or both sides the next time Iran decides it needs political bargaining chips.

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

The Iranians are taking the absolute piss with this.

 

I fancy another SAS raid if we ever find out where they're being held

[Park Life 70]

The Iranians are taking the absolute piss with this.

 

I fancy another SAS raid if we ever find out where they're being held

 

 

It's retalitation for some Iranians picked up in Baghdad recently.

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

The Iranians are taking the absolute piss with this.

 

I fancy another SAS raid if we ever find out where they're being held

 

 

It's retalitation for some Iranians picked up in Baghdad recently.

 

The 'diplomats'?

 

And that was the Americans anyway...

[Park Life 70]

The Iranians are taking the absolute piss with this.

 

I fancy another SAS raid if we ever find out where they're being held

 

 

It's retalitation for some Iranians picked up in Baghdad recently.

 

The 'diplomats'?

 

And that was the Americans anyway...

 

The 'Americans' warned us to be careful as the Iranians were looking for retaliation....As usual we think we know best...

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

The Iranians are taking the absolute piss with this.

 

I fancy another SAS raid if we ever find out where they're being held

 

 

It's retalitation for some Iranians picked up in Baghdad recently.

 

The 'diplomats'?

 

And that was the Americans anyway...

 

The 'Americans' warned us to be careful as the Iranians were looking for retaliation....As usual we think we know best...

 

Be careful? By careful, the yanks mean don't do what you're there for. No thanks, no cowardice from our boys in the face of the enemy. We're hamstrung by our policy of non-aggression. Next time it will be different...

[Park Life 70]

The Iranians are taking the absolute piss with this.

 

I fancy another SAS raid if we ever find out where they're being held

 

 

It's retalitation for some Iranians picked up in Baghdad recently.

 

The 'diplomats'?

 

And that was the Americans anyway...

 

The 'Americans' warned us to be careful as the Iranians were looking for retaliation....As usual we think we know best...

 

Be careful? By careful, the yanks mean don't do what you're there for. No thanks, no cowardice from our boys in the face of the enemy. We're hamstrung by our policy of non-aggression. Next time it will be different...

 

.....don't really know about our policy but I'm more shoot everyone if in doubt in these situations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do know some U.S. general criticised our boys for getting captured....Bit rich...

[Fop 1]

The Iranians are taking the absolute piss with this.

 

I fancy another SAS raid if we ever find out where they're being held

 

 

It's retalitation for some Iranians picked up in Baghdad recently.

 

The 'diplomats'?

 

And that was the Americans anyway...

 

The 'Americans' warned us to be careful as the Iranians were looking for retaliation....As usual we think we know best...

 

Be careful? By careful, the yanks mean don't do what you're there for. No thanks, no cowardice from our boys in the face of the enemy. We're hamstrung by our policy of non-aggression. Next time it will be different...

 

.....don't really know about our policy but I'm more shoot everyone if in doubt in these situations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do know some U.S. general criticised our boys for getting captured....Bit rich...

 

It's probably to do with the recent UN Sanctions as well and indeed the whole nuclear weapons issue (the Revolutionary Guard and conservatives feeling the need to "challenge" such things – in an internal and the immediate area way, obviously this isn’t actually going to do much within the UN itself).

 

I'd imagine UK forces were targeted specifically, not only because we do an awful lot of the work in that area, and because of the "passive" policy, but also because frankly I think they'd still be wary of directly honking off the US Government too much (Iran pretty much feels it has the upper hand now with them, due to the issues in Iraq, but initially when Saddam's regime went down so quickly they were diplomatically wetting themselves at the thought they could be next).

So whilst they may not be worried about a US invasion as such, equally it is unlikely they’d want to risk directly provoking them into some military action.

 

So UK forces are not only available, and easy, but also a sensible way of getting what they want, and even getting at the US indirectly, without too much real risk.

 

As I say they play the game so very well; if Iran had the USA’s power there’d probably be no “West” left, but if the USA had Iran’s cunning and savvy (instead of their almost unbelievable blunt and near sighted current administration) they probably would quite completely run the planet.

[Rob W 0]

When the Yanks grab some Iranians they are "detained"

 

When the Iranians grab some Brits they are "kidnapped"

 

anyone notice the FANTASTIC support we're getting from the Yanks by the way ...mumble, mumble, mumble

[Rob W 0]

Fop

 

Do you have a source for the evidence that our lads were in the correct place?

 

I'm really interested as navigational cock-ups are a bit of a hobby horse of mine................

 

As is fucking everything else it would seem

 

 

Indeed - that's what keeps me ticking over

 

and also provides a constant source of information and irritation to the less well informed on this Board..................

[Jimbo 133]

When the Yanks grab some Iranians they are "detained"

 

When the Iranians grab some Brits they are "kidnapped"

 

anyone notice the FANTASTIC support we're getting from the Yanks by the way ...mumble, mumble, mumble

 

 

Spot on Rob, spot on.

[Guest alex]

When the Yanks grab some Iranians they are "detained"

 

When the Iranians grab some Brits they are "kidnapped"

 

anyone notice the FANTASTIC support we're getting from the Yanks by the way ...mumble, mumble, mumble

 

 

Spot on Rob, spot on.

Aye, got to agree with Berb there.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3197]

When the Yanks grab some Iranians they are "detained"

 

When the Iranians grab some Brits they are "kidnapped"

 

anyone notice the FANTASTIC support we're getting from the Yanks by the way ...mumble, mumble, mumble

 

Both done in Iraqi territory where the iranians are acting illegally.

 

Spot on about the last bit though.

[Gemmill 34440]

Whilst I take your point about the "support" from the US, isn't it preferable that Dubya keeps out of it? The last thing you want is that tit making thinly veiled threats and winding the Iranians up.

[Guest alex]

There seems to be a fair bit of confusion as to where Iranian and Iraqi territory begins and ends tbh. And I'd say the Yanks in particular pick and choose which international law violations they take exception to.

[Fop 1]

When the Yanks grab some Iranians they are "detained"

 

When the Iranians grab some Brits they are "kidnapped"

 

anyone notice the FANTASTIC support we're getting from the Yanks by the way ...mumble, mumble, mumble

 

 

Well in fairness there is quite a difference between taking in people you suspect of aiding militants within a country (and only people that believe OJ was innocent now believe that Iran isn’t aiding some of those groups, at least peripherally) and taking people doing another job entirely (although perhaps stopping that “aid” tbh) from waters that do NOT belong to you.

 

In fact there’s still a fairly big difference even if the waters did belong to you (which in the present case is false beyond all doubt – they may as well have lifted them from the English Channel and claimed they were aggressive encroaching into “Iranian” waters for all the difference it would make), especially when operating under a UN mandate (as such the very most they should do is escort them out).

 

 

As for the USA I doubt the UK Government really wants public or maybe even private “help” at this moment from them, getting them back though diplomatic means isn’t likely to be sped up by involving them too closely I would imagine.

 

 

 

 

Although some of the comments from US staff and such have been rather low.

 

Having said that I’ve even seen comments from people living in the UK that Iran should "make an example of them”, which is pretty damn disgusting, frankly.

[Rob W 0]

I can't find owt on Google about the earlier 2004 incident that says anything about our lads actually being in the right place

 

Bliar did say "we won't know until we get them back with their navigation equipment" but after that its very quiet..............................

[Fop 1]

There seems to be a fair bit of confusion as to where Iranian and Iraqi territory begins and ends tbh. And I'd say the Yanks in particular pick and choose which international law violations they take exception to.

 

 

Aye that's probably fairly true, and as I said before in the case of the 2004 issue it may have been that the Iranians believed they HAD crossed over (at least arguably).

 

But that was within the water ways themselves, this current seizure was further out into open water.

 

Not only are these waters not really changing (which is one of the big issues with the inner delta and river waters as the boundaries sometimes change from year to year, or even season to season, with shifting flows and sands etc. - which is partly why this boarder is SO disputed), but also the boats in question will be not only monitoring their own position in 2-3 ways, but their base ship (and possibly other craft and aircraft) would have been monitoring their position in 1-2 different ways as well.

 

They'd have had to have set off back to their ship in entirely the wrong direction AND ignored their own navigation and checks from their command for a significant period of time to make it into Iranian waters.

 

The timing of the “infringement” is also amazingly coincidental and handy for the Iranian regime.