Craig 6308 Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 But to say Brawn has managed to disprove that money = winning F1 because they got lucky with it this season is silly, especially as they could have just as easily had the ruling go against them and been stripped of the point they've won with it. You claimed that success in F1 was pretty much out of reach of anybody on the grounds of costs which I've suggested Brawn GP have challenged that belief. They didn't 'get lucky', they've got one of the best technical leaders the sport has ever seen. Ross didn't stumble on the rear wing accidentally you cretin, he developed the whole car around it using his own knowledge of aerodynamics. And how could they have easily had the ruling go against them? There was a big grey area in the technical regulations with regards to the rear diffuser. When Brawn became aware of the advantage that designing the the car this way and that the ruling could be interpreted in different manners, he asked the FIA and WMSC to clarify the ruling way back in April 2008. They never acted on his request and therefore he (and Toyota and Williams) pushed ahead with their designs. The others are bitter as the fundamental design of their cars (Renault, the engine - Red Bull, the rear suspension) currently prevents them being able to make use of this design. They can't possibly introduce the two-tier system. One of the 'advantages' they're offering to teams who accept the budget cap is flexible rear wings..... That will give them around a 2 second a lap advantage. Ridiculous. Will they repeat this next season though? And the season after that and after that? Repeat what? Fop man you're picking gnat shit out of pepper. Once every so often, someone designs something in F1 which leads development. Colin Chapman was the person who did this more than anyone (ground effect, twin-chassis) and everyone at the time thought of him as a maverick. Now they see him as a genius. Brawn have exploited a grey area and made a technological breakthrough. Next season all the cars will be designed with the same style of rear wing and in a few years time, someone else will come up with another breakthrough. Developmental advantage never lasts more than a season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 (edited) But to say Brawn has managed to disprove that money = winning F1 because they got lucky with it this season is silly, especially as they could have just as easily had the ruling go against them and been stripped of the point they've won with it. You claimed that success in F1 was pretty much out of reach of anybody on the grounds of costs which I've suggested Brawn GP have challenged that belief. They didn't 'get lucky', they've got one of the best technical leaders the sport has ever seen. Ross didn't stumble on the rear wing accidentally you cretin, he developed the whole car around it using his own knowledge of aerodynamics. And how could they have easily had the ruling go against them? There was a big grey area in the technical regulations with regards to the rear diffuser. When Brawn became aware of the advantage that designing the the car this way and that the ruling could be interpreted in different manners, he asked the FIA and WMSC to clarify the ruling way back in April 2008. They never acted on his request and therefore he (and Toyota and Williams) pushed ahead with their designs. The others are bitter as the fundamental design of their cars (Renault, the engine - Red Bull, the rear suspension) currently prevents them being able to make use of this design. They can't possibly introduce the two-tier system. One of the 'advantages' they're offering to teams who accept the budget cap is flexible rear wings..... That will give them around a 2 second a lap advantage. Ridiculous. Will they repeat this next season though? And the season after that and after that? Repeat what? Fop man you're picking gnat shit out of pepper. Once every so often, someone designs something in F1 which leads development. Colin Chapman was the person who did this more than anyone (ground effect, twin-chassis) and everyone at the time thought of him as a maverick. Now they see him as a genius. Brawn have exploited a grey area and made a technological breakthrough. Next season all the cars will be designed with the same style of rear wing and in a few years time, someone else will come up with another breakthrough. Developmental advantage never lasts more than a season. The technical advantage. What you're saying is basically what Fop is saying, but other than the occasional season with a "rogue" development like that what generally wins F1? And might it not be the case that if there were set limits, then such developments might be even more sought after? Edited May 14, 2009 by Fop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 There should be a set budget for all teams. Now that would encourage innovation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammynb 2929 Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 The technical advantage. What you're saying is basically what Fop is saying, but other than the occasional season with a "rogue" development like that what generally wins F1? And might it not be the case that if there were set limits, then such developments might be even more sought after? Bullshit Chris, you're arguing that they got lucky on a "mistake" and that the FIA is going to outlaw it next season. The rest of us realise that's how F1 cars change and develop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 There should be a set budget for all teams. Now that would encourage innovation. The regulations always seem to have encouraged innovation. All a budget does is create a level playing field, which isn't the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 The technical advantage. What you're saying is basically what Fop is saying, but other than the occasional season with a "rogue" development like that what generally wins F1? And might it not be the case that if there were set limits, then such developments might be even more sought after? Bullshit Chris, you're arguing that they got lucky on a "mistake" and that the FIA is going to outlaw it next season. The rest of us realise that's how F1 cars change and develop. What is it with this thread, people keep saying what Fop just said and yet they don't seem to realise it. There should be a set budget for all teams. Now that would encourage innovation. The regulations always seem to have encouraged innovation. All a budget does is create a level playing field, which isn't the same thing. Are you say that it would it not help? Or that they may take their balls home if they aren't allowed to spend what they want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6308 Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 There should be a set budget for all teams. Now that would encourage innovation. The regulations always seem to have encouraged innovation. All a budget does is create a level playing field, which isn't the same thing. Absolutely spot on... The only way this 'budget cap' wouldn't create a level playing field is that they want the two tiered championship (for those who do and do not accept the budget cap). Anyway the point is moot, Ferrari have a written agreement with the FIA that if they do not agree to changes put forward, they don't materialise. The FIA won't win this particular battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6308 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Ferrari have failed in their bid to stop Formula 1's governing body introducing controversial new rules that limit team spending. Their appeal against the FIA, which wants to introduce an optional £40m budget cap from 2010, was dismissed by a French court in Paris on Wednesday. The proposal has prompted Ferrari to threaten to quit F1, with Renault, Red Bull and Toyota sharing a similar view. The official deadline for entries into the 2010 world championship is 29 May. The FIA's regulations for 2010 propose giving teams who accept the cap greater technical freedom than those wishing to carry on with unlimited budgets, such as Ferrari. It says it wants to introduce the move in order to cut costs and ensure F1's survival amid the global financial crisis - along with encouraging new teams to enter the sport. Ferrari say the optional budget cap would make it a two-tier championship, which they cannot accept, and that they do not believe it is possible to control. They also say they believe it is wrong that a team accepting the budget cap has more freedom and different technical regulations, and that - with 700 employees worldwide - they are unable to reduce its finances significantly in such a short time. Reacting to the rejection of the court injunction on Wednesday, FIA president Max Mosley said he welcomed the judges decision. "No competitor should place their own interests above those of the sport in which they compete," he said. "The FIA, the teams and our commercial partners will now continue to work together to ensure the well being of the Formula 1 in 2010 and beyond." All 10 team owners had met with F1 commercial rights holder Bernie Ecclestone and Mosley in London on Tuesday and, though it was agreed a two-tier championship was not acceptable, Mosley insisted there would be "no compromise" on the cap. Having failed to emerge with a concrete solution then, team bosses are now set to meet in Monaco ahead of this weekend's Grand Prix where they will again hold discussions with Mosley. On Tuesday, Mosley said he believed that submitting the injunction was a sign Ferrari do not want to go through with their threat to quit the sport. Before the decision was announced on Wednesday, the Italian team issued a statement on its official website referring to some of those who might take part in the 2010 championship if a budget cap was introduced. "Wirth Research, Lola, USF1, Epsilon Euskadi, RML, Formtech, Campos, iSport: these are the names of the teams which would compete in the two-tier Formula One wanted by Mosley," it read. "Can a world championship with teams like them - with due respect - have the same value as today's Formula One, where Ferrari, the big car manufacturers and teams, who created the history of this sport, compete? "Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call it Formula GP3?" Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport...one/8058903.stm Must say this one has surprised me.. be interesting to see what Ferrari, Renault, Red Bull & Toyota do now. I wouldn't put them past a breakaway formula which I think the other teams will jump across with as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 "The official deadline for entries into the 2010 world championship is 29 May. " lots of time yet................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Moseley and Bernie have the tracks sewn up, the TV rights, the meeja etc etc they can do what they want - but they'll let Ferrari back in under some compromise never fear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6308 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Moseley and Bernie have the tracks sewn up, the TV rights, the meeja etc etc they can do what they want - but they'll let Ferrari back in under some compromise never fear If they haven't got the teams to drive in their series then it's fucking pointless man! There's a hell of a lot of decent circuits around the world that are not included on the F1 calendar. What's more, the FIA hold no control over what events a circuit can and cannot hold seeing as they don't own them. As for the TV rights - again they have the broadcasting rights to the FIA Formula One World Championship. If the teams setup a rival series (like they've threatened to on many occassions in the past), they'll be able to negotiate their own rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 They have enforceable contracts - like Ferrari would have to pay Bernie if they don't play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Aye, because they would just pay up straight away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 I don't think many people would like to take on Bernie and his lawyers................... he's as bad as the lot at Mouseschwitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6308 Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Prodrive bid for Formula 1 place British motorsport firm Prodrive have submitted an entry to be part of next year's Formula 1 world championship. Prodrive have joined US F1, Spain's Campos Racing and Litespeed GP in adding their names to the list of new entrants on deadline day. The team's chairman David Richards, formerly BAR team boss, said measures to cut costs had encouraged the team. "We are confident that we now have the opportunity to be both commercially viable and competitive," he said. It is understood the team will operate under the Prodrive name for next season and potentially 2011, before switching to Aston Martin branding from 2012. Formula 1's governing body, the FIA, have been in ongoing negotiations to agree a budget cap of around £40m with the 10 existing teams on the grid, a move partly designed to encourage more teams to enter the sport. It is believed a cap of £85m has now been set with the proviso current teams offer technical assistance to new entrants to ease their passage into F1 before the cap settles at £40m by 2011. And Richards, also formerly a boss at Benetton, admitted assistance from the sports governing body had helped make the Prodrive entry possible. "We are very appreciative of the support we have been given in putting together our entry, not least by both the FIA and FOM (Bernie Ecclestone's Formula One Management)," said Richards. "With the help of Dar Capital in raising the finance, coupled with our understanding of the latest proposals to assist new teams, we now feel the conditions are right to formally request the FIA for an entry." Dar Capital is a Kuwaiti finance, logistics and property company that formed the backbone of the Richards-led consortium that paid £600m for a majority stake in Aston Martin in 2007. "The level of next year's cost cap has risen substantially since we originally considered entering," Richards added. "However, everyone appears committed to major reductions in future years. "As we have said all along, we don't want to be in Formula 1 just to make up the numbers." Teams have until the end of Friday, 29 May, to lodge their bids, and the FIA will announce which teams have been successful on 12 June. The Lola team, who last competed in F1 in 1993, are also understood to have lodged their entry. Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport...one/8072740.stm Fantastic news. I believe however that the FIA nowadays limit the grid to 13 teams only which means that only 3 new teams can come into the sport unless one of the established names goes. Shame like, I think there should be no limit to the amount of entrants and we should go back to the days when 'qualifying' was exactly what it said on the tin - attempting to take one of the 26 starting places in the race. Pre-qualifying would be good too and make the Fridays a spectacle all over again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 I see they've all applied................ 2-0 to Bernie and Mosely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Castell 0 Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 (edited) The new teams will be interesting to watch. BBC often show old Grand Prix on the red button in the lead up to a race and it always takes me back seeing Forti, Simtek, Pacific and even Jordan when they had Hart engines. Also interesting to see the shape and looks of the cars over the years with rule changes and aerodynamics taking effect. I hope the budget cap has been sorted. I think there should be a bit more testing, but everyone should have a budget of £Xm. And that the gold medal point scoring thing should just be dropped. Edited May 30, 2009 by Billy Castell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6308 Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 I see they've all applied................ 2-0 to Bernie and Mosely They've applied conditionally... Don't let all the facts get in the way of your argument though, will you Rob? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonraider 0 Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Putting aside F1 for the moment....BTCC is on today with Plato on pole for the first race. Love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 I see they've all applied................ 2-0 to Bernie and Mosely They've applied conditionally... Don't let all the facts get in the way of your argument though, will you Rob? they've applied - the small print is neither here nor there - As I said you don't take on Bernie and his lawyers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6308 Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 I see they've all applied................ 2-0 to Bernie and Mosely They've applied conditionally... Don't let all the facts get in the way of your argument though, will you Rob? they've applied - the small print is neither here nor there - As I said you don't take on Bernie and his lawyers They've applied on the condition that the budget cap doesn't come into force for next year as planned. And the FIA are said to be going along with their demands... If the condition is not met, the application is invalid. Small print is everything man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 they said they wouldn't sign but they did.................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6308 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 they said they wouldn't sign but they did.................... They said no such thing! They said that they wouldn't take part next year if a £40m budget cap was in place. They still maintain that stance. Fucking hell man Rob, get your facts straight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 two weeks ago they said they wouldn't sign up this year..................... and they did so , objectively, their statements aren't worth the paper they are printed on, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6308 Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 two weeks ago they said they wouldn't sign up this year..................... and they did so , objectively, their statements aren't worth the paper they are printed on, no? the bit in bold is totally incorrect which makes the rest of your post invalid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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