England v Germany

[NJS 3988]

I disagree a bit with doing down the Germans - Mexico got at Argentina quite well in spells and I reckon it will be a pretty even game.

 

I also think that the pace of Ghana would have been a problem for the centre-halves.

[Guest alex]

I disagree a bit with doing down the Germans - Mexico got at Argentina quite well in spells and I reckon it will be a pretty even game.

 

I also think that the pace of Ghana would have been a problem for the centre-halves.

I'm not trying to say we'd have murdered the opposition, especially the way we were playing, but on paper we should have been looking at least quarters / semis. That's all I was saying really. Agree Ghana would have caused us problems btw.

[Park Life 70]

German football clubs benefit from nurturing young talent

 

January 07, 2010

 

As football transfer fees continue to go through the roof, German football league Bundesliga could find itself ahead of the pack, should the player market grind to a halt. Soccer could then become reliant on young, homegrown talent.

 

Few soccer clubs in 2010 will be able to splash out as much as in previous years. With top players, such as Liverpool striker Fernando Torres valued at a whopping 158 million euros, costing so much to sign and to sustain, most clubs are increasingly reluctant or unable to shell out the money for the world's best.

 

This means that if the player price hike continues as predicted, fewer and fewer world class stars will be on the move. Eventually, the transfer market will grind to a halt, with the top players all huddled together in London, Madrid or Manchester – or forced to accept their lot at their current clubs.

 

As the value of players continues to rise, many teams have adopted the philosophy of 'speculate to accumulate'; they're developing their youth systems, nurturing young local talent and buying the potential stars of the future on the cheap.

 

German clubs under orders to nurture youth

 

In Germany, the emphasis on youth development has been the cornerstone of the national team's continued success and the slow but steady rise of the Bundesliga through the ranks of the European leagues.

 

While English, Italian and Spanish teams were spending millions on snapping up youngsters from Africa to Asia in the 2006/07 season, Bundesliga clubs were inwardly investing a total of 44 million euros in youth academies.

 

Bundesliga clubs are obliged under the German Soccer Association's (DFB) regulations to manage and maintain youth academies in order to be eligible for the licenses they need to operate in the league. The DFB regularly does spot-checks on Bundesliga clubs to assess their youth programmes and make sure they meet its criteria. This includes fielding a sufficient number of youth teams in a variety of age groups, maintaining adequate training pitches and providing good-quality standards in terms of sporting, medical and educational care for the youngsters.

International success ingrained at an early age

 

National coach Joachim Loew is particularly happy with this approach, especially after Germany's youngsters won the UEFA Under-17 and UEFA Under-21 European titles in 2009. "The youth academies of the Bundesliga are a kind of elite school for the best, and an excellent institution which is bearing fruits," he said recently. "Numerous excellent players from these academies have managed to go professional already."

 

Turning to youth out of necessity

 

The Bundesliga clubs are well aware of the value of the German youth system – for example, current league leaders Bayer Leverkusen have an average age of just 23. While the youth system undoubtedly provides teams with capable players, most German clubs are relying on youth out of necessity because most world-class stars ignore the advances of Bundesliga.

 

Despite being able to attract the likes of Franck Ribery, Arjen Robben and Luca Toni in recent years, even Bayern Munich are talking about looking closer to home for the stars of the future.

 

Bayern could turn to homegrown talent

 

A training session at Bayern MunichBayern did invest heavily in new, established talent during the summer transfer window. But following a disappointing start to the season under new coach Louis van Gaal, Sporting Director Christian Nerlinger announced that a new emphasis on youth will be at the centre of Bayern's transfer policy.

 

"We're keeping a close eye on a few of our youngsters who we believe may have the quality to play for Bayern Munich," Nerlinger told reporters. "They will soon be invited to train with the senior squad, allowing the coaching staff to gain a first-hand impression for themselves.

 

"On the one hand you have the Riberys and Tonis, who we need for consistent success," he added. "On the other hand, you have players coming out of our superb development system and the squad has plenty of those."

 

So, in the event that the world soccer transfer market becomes gridlocked by massive fees, the Bundesliga clubs may find themselves ahead of the pack when it comes to sending out their boys to do a man's job.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Park Life

[ChezGiven 0]

My rambling thoughts:

 

Scoreline flattered them, any team losing in a knock-out has to go for it and risk shipping a few, which is what happened, the 4th goal Terry was in their box in a strikers position. Goals from mistakes mainly or chasing the game too hard. Dont think they outplayed us, we defended very badly for the first 2 goals but lets face it, the defence was fucked (Ferdinand and King) with the only other proper defender being stripped of the captaincy some months earlier. If we had a settled back four of our best defenders then the earlier parts of the game might have been different. One touch from their goalkeeper, one touch from their striker, goal. Game changes completely, all England's planning our the window, Germany relax. How ironic Herr Beckenbauer?

 

Its tempting after big matches to consider them a microcosm of the entire game in the country, which is a bit daft. High expectations from fans, media and country leads to tactical indiscipline as they try to force the play? Possibly.

 

I also find it incredible that the disallowed goal is considered irrelevant. They say goals change games and this is even more true in tournaments, where one team can sit back and does not have to score if they take the lead. Fine, England didnt have the tactical nous to come back from two goals down twice in one match (they did manage it once to their credit) but when the odds are stacked against you like that and you then have to take more risks positionally, the risk is you will suffer a heavier than normal defeat. If you view the match outside that context, then it must look like a disaster. History only remembers the results of course but if you think like that, whats the point in watching it?

 

The results dont always reflect the players potential, sometimes you get tanked when you can play a lot better. Calls for Capello's head or for wholsesale changes to the team are just emotional defence mechanisms. If we were a club, i'd say we have a decent squad, we need a striker, a centre back and a proper left winger (if we are to play 442).

 

They clearly deserved to win but they scored 2 goals when we were committing men forward (desperately due to expectations) chasing a game we had already equalised in. I dont think fundamental conclusions about the future direction of football in England should be based on any embarrassment we are feeling about the result. We looked defeated and dejected at the end of the game because we were in the match, unfortunately thats the period of the game that poor pundits and poor commentators (imo) will look at to describe the performance.

 

So, we were bad but it was the defensive mistakes, some bad luck and psychological desperation that made us look like mugs.

[Guest alex]

I don't think the scoreline flattered them at all tbh.

[ChezGiven 0]

German football clubs benefit from nurturing young talent

 

January 07, 2010

 

As football transfer fees continue to go through the roof, German football league Bundesliga could find itself ahead of the pack, should the player market grind to a halt. Soccer could then become reliant on young, homegrown talent.

 

Few soccer clubs in 2010 will be able to splash out as much as in previous years. With top players, such as Liverpool striker Fernando Torres valued at a whopping 158 million euros, costing so much to sign and to sustain, most clubs are increasingly reluctant or unable to shell out the money for the world's best.

 

This means that if the player price hike continues as predicted, fewer and fewer world class stars will be on the move. Eventually, the transfer market will grind to a halt, with the top players all huddled together in London, Madrid or Manchester – or forced to accept their lot at their current clubs.

 

As the value of players continues to rise, many teams have adopted the philosophy of 'speculate to accumulate'; they're developing their youth systems, nurturing young local talent and buying the potential stars of the future on the cheap.

 

German clubs under orders to nurture youth

 

In Germany, the emphasis on youth development has been the cornerstone of the national team's continued success and the slow but steady rise of the Bundesliga through the ranks of the European leagues.

 

While English, Italian and Spanish teams were spending millions on snapping up youngsters from Africa to Asia in the 2006/07 season, Bundesliga clubs were inwardly investing a total of 44 million euros in youth academies.

 

Bundesliga clubs are obliged under the German Soccer Association's (DFB) regulations to manage and maintain youth academies in order to be eligible for the licenses they need to operate in the league. The DFB regularly does spot-checks on Bundesliga clubs to assess their youth programmes and make sure they meet its criteria. This includes fielding a sufficient number of youth teams in a variety of age groups, maintaining adequate training pitches and providing good-quality standards in terms of sporting, medical and educational care for the youngsters.

International success ingrained at an early age

 

National coach Joachim Loew is particularly happy with this approach, especially after Germany's youngsters won the UEFA Under-17 and UEFA Under-21 European titles in 2009. "The youth academies of the Bundesliga are a kind of elite school for the best, and an excellent institution which is bearing fruits," he said recently. "Numerous excellent players from these academies have managed to go professional already."

 

Turning to youth out of necessity

 

The Bundesliga clubs are well aware of the value of the German youth system – for example, current league leaders Bayer Leverkusen have an average age of just 23. While the youth system undoubtedly provides teams with capable players, most German clubs are relying on youth out of necessity because most world-class stars ignore the advances of Bundesliga.

 

Despite being able to attract the likes of Franck Ribery, Arjen Robben and Luca Toni in recent years, even Bayern Munich are talking about looking closer to home for the stars of the future.

 

Bayern could turn to homegrown talent

 

A training session at Bayern MunichBayern did invest heavily in new, established talent during the summer transfer window. But following a disappointing start to the season under new coach Louis van Gaal, Sporting Director Christian Nerlinger announced that a new emphasis on youth will be at the centre of Bayern's transfer policy.

 

"We're keeping a close eye on a few of our youngsters who we believe may have the quality to play for Bayern Munich," Nerlinger told reporters. "They will soon be invited to train with the senior squad, allowing the coaching staff to gain a first-hand impression for themselves.

 

"On the one hand you have the Riberys and Tonis, who we need for consistent success," he added. "On the other hand, you have players coming out of our superb development system and the squad has plenty of those."

 

So, in the event that the world soccer transfer market becomes gridlocked by massive fees, the Bundesliga clubs may find themselves ahead of the pack when it comes to sending out their boys to do a man's job.

 

German youth movements have a long history of success.

[NJS 3988]

I don't think the scoreline flattered them at all tbh.

 

 

SSN were quoting cold facts which had 7 shots for them and 6 for England which they said made it sound even. For me Germany created clear chances and had goalscorers in the team who could finish. I also think if they hadn't used their subs, they could easily have had another couple and that would have applied even if England had scored in the second half.

 

Also Chez mentioned impetus from the diallowed goal but surely England would have gone "all out" just the same in the second half wheteher it was 2-2 or 1-2 as they wouldn't know how to play a patient game so I still think they would have been hit on the break.

[Park Life 70]

My rambling thoughts:

 

Scoreline flattered them, any team losing in a knock-out has to go for it and risk shipping a few, which is what happened, the 4th goal Terry was in their box in a strikers position. Goals from mistakes mainly or chasing the game too hard. Dont think they outplayed us, we defended very badly for the first 2 goals but lets face it, the defence was fucked (Ferdinand and King) with the only other proper defender being stripped of the captaincy some months earlier. If we had a settled back four of our best defenders then the earlier parts of the game might have been different. One touch from their goalkeeper, one touch from their striker, goal. Game changes completely, all England's planning our the window, Germany relax. How ironic Herr Beckenbauer?

 

Its tempting after big matches to consider them a microcosm of the entire game in the country, which is a bit daft. High expectations from fans, media and country leads to tactical indiscipline as they try to force the play? Possibly.

 

I also find it incredible that the disallowed goal is considered irrelevant. They say goals change games and this is even more true in tournaments, where one team can sit back and does not have to score if they take the lead. Fine, England didnt have the tactical nous to come back from two goals down twice in one match (they did manage it once to their credit) but when the odds are stacked against you like that and you then have to take more risks positionally, the risk is you will suffer a heavier than normal defeat. If you view the match outside that context, then it must look like a disaster. History only remembers the results of course but if you think like that, whats the point in watching it?

 

The results dont always reflect the players potential, sometimes you get tanked when you can play a lot better. Calls for Capello's head or for wholsesale changes to the team are just emotional defence mechanisms. If we were a club, i'd say we have a decent squad, we need a striker, a centre back and a proper left winger (if we are to play 442).

 

They clearly deserved to win but they scored 2 goals when we were committing men forward (desperately due to expectations) chasing a game we had already equalised in. I dont think fundamental conclusions about the future direction of football in England should be based on any embarrassment we are feeling about the result. We looked defeated and dejected at the end of the game because we were in the match, unfortunately thats the period of the game that poor pundits and poor commentators (imo) will look at to describe the performance.

 

So, we were bad but it was the defensive mistakes, some bad luck and psychological desperation that made us look like mugs.

 

But these failings are the tip of an enourmous iceberg of shit which is the PL and the way it ingrains a wierd and totally entertainment like version of football on the players. I agree we were chasing the game and hence lost composure. But how about starting with a solid midfield ( how often do you see Capello shouting at Gerrard and point at his feet ie hold your positon) or telling an unwilling and unfit Barry to press and tackle?

 

You have to start with two holding midfielders that can pass. We don't have any that understand what that entails or have the tools to do it. And the Pl is full of them but of course they are all foreign.

[Holden McGroin 4956]

SSN were quoting cold facts which had 7 shots for them and 6 for England

 

5 of them were probably Gerrards speculative 35 yard drives.

[NJS 3988]

You have to start with two holding midfielders that can pass. We don't have any that understand what that entails or have the tools to do it. And the Pl is full of them but of course they are all foreign.

 

Carrick?

[Guest alex]

You have to start with two holding midfielders that can pass. We don't have any that understand what that entails or have the tools to do it. And the Pl is full of them but of course they are all foreign.

 

Carrick?

Aye but he's been off the boil for about 2 years.

[NJS 3988]

You have to start with two holding midfielders that can pass. We don't have any that understand what that entails or have the tools to do it. And the Pl is full of them but of course they are all foreign.

 

Carrick?

Aye but he's been off the boil for about 2 years.

 

I suppose you could add Hargreaves as well in the same context.

 

 

As someone else said, the reverence for Lampard and Gerrard is a stumbling block - especially if you then won't even play one of them where he's useful.

[Holden McGroin 4956]

I think Lampard played quite well yesterday actually.

[Park Life 70]

You have to start with two holding midfielders that can pass. We don't have any that understand what that entails or have the tools to do it. And the Pl is full of them but of course they are all foreign.

 

Carrick?

 

Ideally it should have been Carrick and Hargreaves at the hub yes. You don't see Schwein and Khadeira bolting forward at every opp do you?

 

 

 

..........Carrick........Hargreaves...

 

.....................Gerrard..............

 

 

433 or a stretched 451 is how all the other sides play.

[ChezGiven 0]

I don't think the scoreline flattered them at all tbh.

First there is the hype and then there is the anti-hype. We were never as good as people hoped but we have not turned to shit overnight.

[Guest alex]

Wouldn't have solved the problems at the back like. That's where we were truly abysmal - the two centre-halves. Terry'll probably get away with it though as Upson was more honest so looked worse (not saying he played well, he didn't) whereas the self-styled national hero just kept out the way.

[Guest alex]

I don't think the scoreline flattered them at all tbh.

First there is the hype and then there is the anti-hype. We were never as good as people hoped but we have not turned to shit overnight.

We're about 8th best in the world but we didn't play to that potential in a single game. We were shite against Germany I'm afraid. Whether that's a true reflection of how good we actually are is a different matter. Germany are no great shakes which makes it worse for me.

[Park Life 70]

Wouldn't have solved the problems at the back like. That's where we were truly abysmal - the two centre-halves. Terry'll probably get away with it though as Upson was more honest so looked worse (not saying he played well, he didn't) whereas the self-styled national hero just kept out the way.

 

It's also the fact that the back had no protection.

[Giraffidae 0]

"We knew that the midfielders - Gerrard and Lampard - always support the forwards and that their midfield would be open.

 

"We knew there would be spaces. Our objective was to set Terry up with Klose to force him to come out of the defence.

 

"We knew the full-backs would be very much to the side, and that would create space that we could penetrate.

 

"We knew they might become impatient and lose their discipline. We did that successfully.

 

"We could have been 3-0 up in the first half because we did penetrate them."

 

Low

not surprised to read that, they ripped us to shreds except for 10-15 minutes.

 

Watching the defeat wasn’t the same abject pain as on other occasions — like the semis at Italia 90 — because then we had a good chance to win the competition, this time we were outclassed, it was an embarrassment, but the best team won and we didn’t deserve to progress.

 

At no point through the tournament did we look like a team of any significance — we only had the desperate hope that at some point we would ‘click’...

[Guest alex]

Wouldn't have solved the problems at the back like. That's where we were truly abysmal - the two centre-halves. Terry'll probably get away with it though as Upson was more honest so looked worse (not saying he played well, he didn't) whereas the self-styled national hero just kept out the way.

 

It's also the fact that the back had no protection.

True, Barry was shit but the first goal can't be attributed to the midfield for a kick-off. Every time Germany played a long ball or a through ball it looked like they were going to get an effort on goal.

[Renton 17876]

I don't think the scoreline flattered them at all tbh.

First there is the hype and then there is the anti-hype. We were never as good as people hoped but we have not turned to shit overnight.

We're about 8th best in the world but we didn't play to that potential in a single game. We were shite against Germany I'm afraid. Whether that's a true reflection of how good we actually are is a different matter. Germany are no great shakes which makes it worse for me.

 

What potential? There is no potential imo. England are not a top 10 side and things are only going to get worse.

[Park Life 70]

Wouldn't have solved the problems at the back like. That's where we were truly abysmal - the two centre-halves. Terry'll probably get away with it though as Upson was more honest so looked worse (not saying he played well, he didn't) whereas the self-styled national hero just kept out the way.

 

It's also the fact that the back had no protection.

True, Barry was shit but the first goal can't be attributed to the midfield for a kick-off. Every time Germany played a long ball or a through ball it looked like they were going to get an effort on goal.

 

Untill we get a hub of two DM's who can pass and hold postion we are going to lose to the big sides. Also at international level who actually plays wingers these days? Even with Brazil moves are timed for the RB or LB to overlap and the again two DM's stay out of it.

[Holden McGroin 4956]

Wouldn't have solved the problems at the back like. That's where we were truly abysmal - the two centre-halves. Terry'll probably get away with it though as Upson was more honest so looked worse (not saying he played well, he didn't) whereas the self-styled national hero just kept out the way.

 

It's also the fact that the back had no protection.

 

Yeah. Completely stretched. The amount of time some of the German midfielders got between our defence and midfield was scary.

[Guest alex]

I don't think the scoreline flattered them at all tbh.

First there is the hype and then there is the anti-hype. We were never as good as people hoped but we have not turned to shit overnight.

We're about 8th best in the world but we didn't play to that potential in a single game. We were shite against Germany I'm afraid. Whether that's a true reflection of how good we actually are is a different matter. Germany are no great shakes which makes it worse for me.

 

What potential? There is no potential imo. England are not a top 10 side and things are only going to get worse.

Renton, I'm never one to overhype us but as others have stated we have better players than Algeria, USA and Slovenia, yet we only won one of those games. We can play better than we did against Germany. And we are one of the top 10 sides in the world. It's a fact.

[Guest alex]

Wouldn't have solved the problems at the back like. That's where we were truly abysmal - the two centre-halves. Terry'll probably get away with it though as Upson was more honest so looked worse (not saying he played well, he didn't) whereas the self-styled national hero just kept out the way.

 

It's also the fact that the back had no protection.

True, Barry was shit but the first goal can't be attributed to the midfield for a kick-off. Every time Germany played a long ball or a through ball it looked like they were going to get an effort on goal.

 

Untill we get a hub of two DM's who can pass and hold postion we are going to lose to the big sides. Also at international level who actually plays wingers these days? Even with Brazil moves are timed for the RB or LB to overlap and the again two DM's stay out of it.

The daft thing is we played with two nominal wingers but they're both probably better in the middle anyway