ChezGiven 0 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 I think you've definitely got a point HF. I also think you're overstating it using biased data at every turn too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) I really don't believe he will, his model is set, club will live within it's means and if a big offer comes in it will be considered, but it will have to be BIG to be accepted. This selling one of the crown jewels is not a one sided thing, there has to be a market for the player a,b,c etc. That market is the CL "club", the player we have has firstly to be better than what they already have, to be of interest to them, and secondly then that position has to be on their budgetted priorities to upgrade list. There's a limited number of our players (if any) who fit those parameters I reckon. That said, there are dozens upon dozens of REALLY good players around Europe (and beyond) who don't play for BIG clubs, I'd rather take a punt on 3 of them at £5 mill each than one at £15 Mill. And yes I do like what Ashley appears to be doing. He does not appear to be taking out and the club is constrained within it's means, those means are greater than most and are eminently "growable" if we keep progressing. There's a lot to like IMO. the difference between myself and you, TP, is that you are basically happy for the club to make money and tread water while selling its best players, isn't it, rather than have ambitions on the playing side of things, isn't it ? Do you think that, now the cash for Carroll has disappeared and the club is now in "good financial health", there are grounds for saying that any more money from big sales for silly money will be given completely to the manager to improve the team as much as possible or are you going to continue to accept that money will disappear and he will not get it. I believe PaddockLad has made a similar point also in direct response to yourself ? Edited May 16, 2012 by LeazesMag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 The problem with that is were we lucky, or efficient? Especially in the sun (A), Wig (H), QPR (H), Bla(A) games? at the end of the day, you get where you are over the course of a season, adapting to all weathers, conditions, injuries, suspensions, team spirit, ability of the players, tactics and motivations, but if you lose these sort of games too often and to that degree are inconsistent, then it means that you are not really good enough, this is also a reflection of the fact that quite a bit of improvement is needed to go higher. Where luck comes in, is getting away with changing too many players and coming up trumps while holding back transfer funds. Carr and Pardew have done very well, but does anybody really think these sort of dealings can continue to work indefinitely ? As much as I would like to think otherwise, Carr and Pardew while obviously good at what they do, are no Brian Clough and Peter Taylore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 35872 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) the difference between myself and you, TP, is that you are basically happy for the club to make money and tread water while selling its best players, isn't it, rather than have ambitions on the playing side of things, isn't it ? Strap yourselves in, chaps. We're off again, isn't it. Edited May 16, 2012 by Gemmill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 9286 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 the difference between myself and you, TP, is that you are basically happy for the club to make money and tread water while selling its best players, isn't it, rather than have ambitions on the playing side of things, isn't it ? Do you think that, now the cash for Carroll has disappeared and the club is now in "good financial health", there are grounds for saying that any more money from big sales for silly money will be given completely to the manager to improve the team as much as possible or are you going to continue to accept that money will disappear and he will not get it. I believe PaddockLad has made a similar point also in direct response to yourself ? I don't believe that's what he thinks (and he'll correct me if I'm wrong) I think he's happy to use a different way of achieving the ambitions we all share. He looks at the way we've built the side we have at the moment and believes that it's been successful so far and that it is a less risky strategy. We scout hard, we buy players who've the ability to take us to the next level without breaking the bank and we buy characters that fit into the squad and club ethos. We've got a side that cost less than a lot of the teams that we ended up competing with at the end of the season. For me, it's like buying anything, you look for the best fit for your demands, at the best price, and if you see a pair that you want that are outside your budget, you don't go and get an expensive loan to cover the purchase. Also, the only players that you can say were our "best" and were sold would be Carroll and Nolan. They've both not only been replaced, but improved upon. We don't just have one striker who's scoring, we have 2. We don't just have a midfielder who can pop up with a goal, we have a midfielder who scores, provides assists AND is mobile. I know it fits your argument to paint Newcastle as a selling club, but in truth it's more fair to say we've moved on Nolan and Barton. One for his age and limitations and the other for his attitude. Both decisions have been proven to be the right ones. We sold Carroll for a frankly absurd fee and again, that decision is the right one. Enrique still rankles with me, I wonder how hard we worked to keep him, how much his agent was in his ear, where we could have improved our offer to convince him to stay... but you have to agree that he made the decision to go and after that it was just about getting as much as we could for him. So "selling our best players" is actually; 2 shrewd pieces of business, 1 want-away star and 1 good player with a terrible attitude. There has to come a point where you stop saying "Hindsight is wonderful" and start thinking that none of these decisions were blind rolls of the dice, but considered paths trodden by men who know what they're doing (Carr, Pardew & his staff). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JawD 31 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Strap yourselves in, chaps. We're off again, isn't it. fucking hell LM, do not start this bullshit again. There is a massive difference between "selling your best players" as if it happens all the fucking time than selling ONE players for a huge amount of money that in turn helped us build and get to 5th, Think about it man for fuck sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Can we not have the debate at all like? I don't think we'll finish 5th next year, is there no point in talking about why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JawD 31 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Can we not have the debate at all like? I don't think we'll finish 5th next year, is there no point in talking about why? Course we can have the debate, thats the whole point. But not the same debate, the same comments exactly in every thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JawD 31 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 and I dont think we'll reach 5th either, 6-7th maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4005 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 pointless really anyone guessing where we'll finish until we know the squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McFaul 35 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 This season of luck can't last forever, at boardroom and playing level, and the indications are that some of our better players will leave anyway. I'll be delighted with 7th next season, and think we will come 7th-9th. What would make my summer is if Ashley sold the club to someone who doesn't want Newcastle fans going in to the summer accepting we'll lose 2 or 3 of our best players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4005 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 This season of luck can't last forever, at boardroom and playing level, and the indications are that some of our better players will leave anyway. I'll be delighted with 7th next season, and think we will come 7th-9th. What would make my summer is if Ashley sold the club to someone who doesn't want Newcastle fans going in to the summer accepting we'll lose 2 or 3 of our best players. Like Tottenham fans hoping to hang on to Modric or Bale and Arsenal Van Persie etc. Cant really see much difference and just think most fans understand the football worlds financial climate a bit more realistically these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 35872 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 I just hope we don't sell all of our best luck and fail to replace it with better luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JawD 31 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Like Tottenham fans hoping to hang on to Modric or Bale and Arsenal Van Persie etc. Cant really see much difference and just think most fans understand the football worlds financial climate a bit more realistically these days. Aye exactly. In the modern game when you have the likes of Man City throwing around Billions, how can a club say no when a stupid offer comes in. On the plus side, if we do sell a player for stupid money, we know is has a possibility of turning that one player into three more like Cabaye, Tiote and Santon which when we need squad depth (quality not dross) could help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McFaul 35 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Like Tottenham fans hoping to hang on to Modric or Bale and Arsenal Van Persie etc. Cant really see much difference and just think most fans understand the football worlds financial climate a bit more realistically these days. They had that last season, and their board of directors didn't want to sell them so they stayed. When was the last time Tottenham were forced to sell a top player. Berbatov? How long ago was that?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4005 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 They had that last season, and their board of directors didn't want to sell them so they stayed. When was the last time Tottenham were forced to sell a top player. Berbatov? How long ago was that?! And Arsenal? Who did they sell last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 I just hope we don't sell all of our best luck and fail to replace it with better luck. Aye, i dont know why anyone's worried about players leaving if its luck that has got us to 5th Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 And Arsenal? Who did they sell last year? Fucking genius from Wenger in retrospect that. Sacked off gettting in the top 2 as the Manchester clubs were too strong, sells Fabregas and Nasri and still comes 3rd. What a manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McFaul 35 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 And Arsenal? Who did they sell last year? And Arsenal? Who did they sell last year? After getting £20m more than his value, and they managed to keep him 3 years after Barca and he wanted the transfer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Fucking genius from Wenger in retrospect that. Sacked off gettting in the top 2 as the Manchester clubs were too strong, sells Fabregas and Nasri and still comes 3rd. What a manager. He's a genius. Wenger and Ferguson, are probably the 2 best managers in the premiership so far in fact only Mourinho has matched them and could be put in the same class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McFaul 35 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Wenger has an economics degree, the fiscal side is massive to him, he'd be too disgusted to represent a club like Chelsea or Manchester City. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Wenger has an economics degree, the fiscal side is massive to him, he'd be too disgusted to represent a club like Chelsea or Manchester City. you should read that book I recommded in the other thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Wenger has an economics degree, the fiscal side is massive to him, he'd be too disgusted to represent a club like Chelsea or Manchester City. Spot on that, the french think money is vulgar. He wouldnt want the job at City imo. He'd have pissed the league with them if he did though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 35872 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Fucking genius from Wenger in retrospect that. Sacked off gettting in the top 2 as the Manchester clubs were too strong, sells Fabregas and Nasri and still comes 3rd. What a manager. Missing Wilshere as well don't forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McFaul 35 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Spot on that, the french think money is vulgar. He wouldnt want the job at City imo. He'd have pissed the league with them if he did though. Aye I remember Ginola saying that the French view money like that, and treat rich people with scorn. Apparently they're even worse though when the people with the money are french, I remember him saying that they'll go down to San Tropez and admire all of the multi-million pound yachts, but if they think a Frenchman owns it they'll spit on the ground. Obviously Wenger is French but he was brought and lived around Strasbourg for most of his life, which is a mile from Germany. You'll know better than me, but I think it's inevitable that people in that part of France are strongly influenced by the kraut way. Emotionless, efficient, methodical and robotic. They're not bad things to have as a manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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