ewerk 26738 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I don't doubt that Wikileaks had the best of intentions and I don't doubt that Assange is being targeted because he's a thorn in the US's side. What I don't like is the fact that he chose the UK to claim asylum and when that didn't work out he ran crying to the Ecuadorians. A country where their government stands for the very things that Wikileaks is claiming to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26738 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 How can the allegations be beside the point? That's what he's being hounded for. Nothing whatsoever to do with his Wikileaks work...they would have you believe....because no crime was committed there. The notion of him receiving a trial when all they want is an STD test is laughable. Supporting it is stranger still. The fact that I believe him to likely be innocent is what is besides the point. Do you believe that the allegations of rape/sexual assault will be dealt with fairly in Sweden? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 I don't doubt that Wikileaks had the best of intentions and I don't doubt that Assange is being targeted because he's a thorn in the US's side. What I don't like is the fact that he chose the UK to claim asylum and when that didn't work out he ran crying to the Ecuadorians. A country where their government stands for the very things that Wikileaks is claiming to fight. It's shameful isn't it? A country with such a poor record is actually ahead of the UK when it comes to not forcing people out of their country and in to potential harm without justification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26738 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 It's shameful isn't it? A country with such a poor record is actually ahead of the UK when it comes to not forcing people out of their country and in to potential harm without justification. So you believe that the UK's position is unjust? And what does it say about Assange? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 The fact that I believe him to likely be innocent is what is besides the point. Do you believe that the allegations of rape/sexual assault will be dealt with fairly in Sweden? I think they'll be dealt with quickly and will come to nothing. Having him there under that pretense will allow him to be handed over to the US though, which Sweden are much more willing to do. Once the US have him, there is no chance whatsoever of him being charged with a crime or given a trial. They'll just lock him up and torture him to fuck. You only have to look at Bradley Manning, the alleged actual leaker and US citizen, who has been detained for years without any charge, in conditions constituting torture as stated by human rights groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 So you believe that the UK's position is unjust? And what does it say about Assange? For the UK to remove embassy rights from Ecuador in order to arrest and then extradite a man who hasn't been charged with a crime anywhere in the world is unprecedented.....and yes, unjust. The fact it's being done over an STD test and not an actual violent crime of any sort only worsens it. Not sure what you mean with the second question. Are you sayiong Assange should gladly volunteer himself for inevitable torture and basically for his life to be ended, for the sake of saving embarrassment to the UK justice system? Do that, or he's a coward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26738 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I think they'll be dealt with quickly and will come to nothing. Having him there under that pretense will allow him to be handed over to the US though, which Sweden are much more willing to do. Once the US have him, there is no chance whatsoever of him being charged with a crime or given a trial. They'll just lock him up and torture him to fuck. You only have to look at Bradley Manning (the alleged actual leaker) and US citizen, who has been detained for years without any charge, in conditions constituting torture by human rights groups. Without charge? He has been charged with a number of offences. And his conditions certainly did not amount to being 'tortured to fuck'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Without charge? He has been charged with a number of offences. And his conditions certainly did not amount to being 'tortured to fuck'. Which charges? He's not been tortured to fuck because he's not been in custody in the US yet. The US torture people to fuck as a matter of routine, and kill them. Without charges of any kind being made. There's every reason to think they would do that to him once they got their mitts on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 35318 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Truth is I don't know much about what's going on. It's telling though that the average person's perception of him is that he's a weird looking sex pest. Power of media manipulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26738 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 For the UK to remove embassy rights from Ecuador in order to arrest and then extradite a man who hasn't been charged with a crime anywhere in the world is unprecedented.....and yes, unjust. The fact it's being done over an STD test and not an actual violent crime of any sort only worsens it. Not sure what you mean with the second question. Are you sayiong Assange should gladly volunteer himself for inevitable torture and basically for his life to be ended, for the sake of saving embarrassment to the UK justice system? Do that, or he's a coward? The guy was happy to go along with the UK legal system until it ruled against him. Do you have a source on the fact that they only want him to carry out an STD test? If that's all it is then why hasn't he just voluntarily had one done in the UK? I'm 99% confident that the UK will not storm the Ecuadorian embassy, it's most likely an ill-advised hollow threat. My second question was that the man does not have the courage of his convictions. One of the prime aims of his life's work has been to expose human rights violations yet he's now prepared to suckle at the teat of a government that openly violate the very human rights that his work is trying to protect. It doesn't add up for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26738 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Which charges? He's not been tortured to fuck because he's not been in custody in the US yet. The US torture people to fuck as a matter of routine, and kill them. Without charges of any kind being made. There's every reason to think they would do that to him once they got their mitts on him. I'm referring to Manning, not Assange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 The reasons for Julian Assange’s challenge to Sweden’s extradition order, relevant to this topic are: 1) Julian Assange has not been charged with any offense. 2) Sweden has a bilateral agreement with the United States which would allow it to surrender Julian Assange without going through the traditional tests and standards of regular, lengthy ’extradition’ procedures. More Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26738 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 More Can you charge someone with a crime before arresting them? Also, seeing as Sweden has such a flexible extradition agreement with the US then what was he doing there in the first place? And why didn't the USA request his extradition when he was previously in the country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 The guy was happy to go along with the UK legal system until it ruled against him. Do you have a source on the fact that they only want him to carry out an STD test? If that's all it is then why hasn't he just voluntarily had one done in the UK? http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-sweden The allegations may have been trumped up since, but the complainants weren't asking for any more. I'm 99% confident that the UK will not storm the Ecuadorian embassy, it's most likely an ill-advised hollow threat. The police surrounding the embassy is a message to ecuador. As the Wikileaks statement this morning states... This threat is designed to preempt Ecuador’s imminent decision on whether it will grant Julian Assange political asylum, and to bully Ecuador into a decision that is agreeable to the United Kingdom and its allies. Decision due in 3 hours or so now. My second question was that the man does not have the courage of his convictions. One of the prime aims of his life's work has been to expose human rights violations yet he's now prepared to suckle at the teat of a government that openly violate the very human rights that his work is trying to protect. It doesn't add up for me. The man has been courageous enough to take on the might of the US at great risk to his own personal safety and liberty. He continues to do so while fighting those forces piling massive pressure on him. A fight that would cease for him, the moment he was in custody. He is not prepared to stop fighting that injustice and is using the means at his disposal to keep it going, almost single handed. All while the international community stands in line behind the might of the US and does their bidding...but Assange doesn't have courage? Plus Assange does shine a light on Ecuadors human rights record. The diplomatic cables revealed much about Ecuador. Taking advantage of their commitment to asylum rights does nothing to contradict that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DPBdRld6BY If they get him to Sweden he'll end up in America.If they get him to America he'll disspear for years into their system.Wikileaks will drop the bomb. Edited August 16, 2012 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 I'm referring to Manning, not Assange. Mendez, who runs the UN office that investigates incidents of alleged torture around the world, told the Guardian: "I conclude that the 11 months under conditions of solitary confinement (regardless of the name given to his regime by the prison authorities) constitutes at a minimum cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment in violation of article 16 of the convention against torture. If the effects in regards to pain and suffering inflicted on Manning were more severe, they could constitute torture." Mendez told the Guardian that he could not reach a definitive conclusion on whether Manning had been tortured because he has consistently been denied permission by the US military to interview the prisoner under acceptable circumstances. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Truth is I don't know much about what's going on. It's telling though that the average person's perception of him is that he's a weird looking sex pest. Power of media manipulation. The power of narrative. You tell a story that hangs together and keep telling it. Its how the world works, its politics, economics, the arts, the media. We tell stories to ourselves all the time, we listen to them and the ones which resonate with our values, the simpler, more easily comprehended ones are the ones which people believe. A perception is the mirror-image of a narrative, neither are real. Politicians aim to control that narrative at all times, its spin or media manipulation if you like but i see the media as willing and conscious participants in the process and not as being manipulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 The power of narrative. You tell a story that hangs together and keep telling it. Its how the world works, its politics, economics, the arts, the media. We tell stories to ourselves all the time, we listen to them and the ones which resonate with our values, the simpler, more easily comprehended ones are the ones which people believe. A perception is the mirror-image of a narrative, neither are real. Politicians aim to control that narrative at all times, its spin or media manipulation if you like but i see the media as willing and conscious participants in the process and not as being manipulated. Totally agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Can you charge someone with a crime before arresting them? Also, seeing as Sweden has such a flexible extradition agreement with the US then what was he doing there in the first place? And why didn't the USA request his extradition when he was previously in the country? He went for questioning in Stockholm willingly in 2010. The arrest warrant was withdrawn at the time and was only re-issued after the diplomatic cables release, after the US started piling on the pressure and pressing for action against him. He'd come back to England by then having had a request for residency in Sweden knocked back without reason being given. He's offered to answer all and any questions Swedish authorities might have in the UK. Timeline here. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11949341 Sweden have good protections for Whistleblowers so he hoped to base Wikileaks there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 The power of narrative. You tell a story that hangs together and keep telling it. Its how the world works, its politics, economics, the arts, the media. We tell stories to ourselves all the time, we listen to them and the ones which resonate with our values, the simpler, more easily comprehended ones are the ones which people believe. A perception is the mirror-image of a narrative, neither are real. Politicians aim to control that narrative at all times, its spin or media manipulation if you like but i see the media as willing and conscious participants in the process and not as being manipulated. Exactly my thoughts and why I asked for casual observers views. Iraq had WMD...Palestine/Israel is a war between 2 equal and opposing, equally culpable sides....austerity leads to prosperity....Iran are a nuclear threat...Assange was reckless and endangered the middle east, not the US..... It's almost impressive how the exact opposite of fact becomes the prevailing wisdom thatnks to the machinations of political and media elites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Ecuador FM: we have decided to grant Julian Assange political asylum. Good lad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Ecuador FM: we tried to get Sweden to agree to no extradition to US in exchange for Assange going to Sweden - they said NO Utter shambles of an ulterior motive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acrossthepond 707 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Assange has made some incredibly poor decisions and if he is involved in any sort of sex offense he must stand trial for it. But it seems that the only reason Sweden wanted him was to turn him over to the USA, which absolutely should not happen. It's clear to everyone why America wants him tbh and it's not to discuss flower arrangements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26738 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Okay, so now that he asylum in Ecuador, the question is how do they get him there? If he sets foot outside the embassy he'll be arrested. He can't stay there indefinitely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Okay, so now that he asylum in Ecuador, the question is how do they get him there? If he sets foot outside the embassy he'll be arrested. He can't stay there indefinitely. It'll be a 15 year job in the embassy, like József Mindszenty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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