Rayvin

You're completely right and that weighs heavily on me whenever I get worked up about this.

I'll remain open minded, I just hate watching this pandering.

I liked Starmer. I voted for him at the leadership election chiefly because of his pro EU views. And I understand why he feels he needs to park the Brexit question - I think he's wrong, but I understand how he's gotten to where he has. He's not taking me with him on that particular trip though. We'll see in the next GE I suppose.

Maybe so, but I'm not ready to let go of my anger on this yet - and probably won't until the reality of Brexit is properly reckoned with at a national level. And I hope you're right about the truth. It would change the picture for me if it turned out to be the case.

The only way it's getting elected is through PR. I've been reflecting on my views on this for the past half an hour and I suppose the truth to my position on this is worth mentioning. I'm not a left wing idealogue, I'm not chasing a particular vision of left wing government. What I am, is furious. I've been furious for years now. I am furious that we have Brexit, I'm furious that older voters who have had the easiest political lifespans in history consistently fuck over people in my generation and younger. I'm furious that we had 10 years of austerity because New Labour couldn't build a simple fucking narrative to challenge it. But more than anything at this point, I am incandescent that I am now meant to sit down and break bread with the fuckers who voted for all of this, that I'm meant to take one for the team and support weak and pathetic pandering to these people - people who don't analyse policy before voting, who don't inform themselves, and who are consistently voting against their own best interests due to some nebulous bullshit about patriotism. I'm meant to turn the other cheek on Brexit ffs, the greatest act of national self harm that this country has possibly ever seen - an act carried out by traitors and liars with the consent of the blind. There is no possible way I can stomach that, it's just not going to happen - and I am appalled that the fucking Labour party has thrown in to try and win over these people not by demonstrating the error of their ways, but by treating them as fucking children and lying to them about Brexit and "how they made the right choice but the Tories are just doing it wrong". And it expects me, you, all of us to be complicit in this. To all pretend that this is ok and to hide our real feelings and agendas until we get elected, at which point we do what? Either we do fuck all because we need these people to vote for us next time, or we introduce reform by stealth. The problem with the latter is, the people we need to hoodwink to get into power to do this, already know that this is our plan. They don't trust us to implement their fucked up right wing bullshit. And why the fuck would they? They're not children and we need to stop treating them like children. People in this country need to be battered over the head with the truth until it finally sinks the fuck in - and if it never does, then we didn't deserve a functional country in the first place. So if I'm an ideologue for any particular view, it's that. Not the left, not socialism, not utopias - just the fucking truth.

Johnson seems to be capturing a lot of that pragmatic centreground though. Moreover, he's doing it with a far more convincing dash of 'Patriotic fervour' than Starmer is ever going to be able to manage. I mean ffs, Starmer is now in a position where he's arguing against a Tory government which is raising taxes to better pay for health care. I think we do need radical change since we're running out of time to fix this both as a country regarding our society, and as a species regarding climate change. Another 10 years and there'll be no going back to anything like what we had under Blair, even with another Labour government. Too much water will have gone under the bridge, and our far lowered expectations will accept any meagre gesture our ruling class deign to give us. You're talking about things being a bit less shit. They were a bit less shit under Cameron, are you saying you'd be happy with going back to that? Is that now what a Labour government should be aiming at? To get back to where New Labour were from here requires radical change. Then we can talk about whether or not there's merit in heading further left. I'm not fussed at that stage really but we can't keep pussy footing around the serious issues.

The only thing he could put forward that I would throw him my vote over at this point is PR. If he promises a referendum on that or however he wants to go about it, he'll get my vote with or without any clear vision or plan. He's not going to do it though because the arrogance within the Labour party is breathtaking. As you say, they're powerless in opposition. You'd think they would be able to see that this was the only way forward, and yet here we are.

Not sure I'd quite describe my own views like that but it's basically where I am. He's betrayed my vote for him and looks useless - wouldn't say unpalatable per se but he's taking my vote for granted and so he's not getting it. If that's sixth form ideology then the world can get fucked tbh. I suppose time will tell if that view holds up all the way to the voting booth but if there was an election tomorrow I'd not be voting Labour. Don't worry though, all the soft right Tories are going to be voting for him in spades, so my vote doesn't matter. Apparently. He's losing those people through strategic choice on his own part, take it up with him. He has had absolutely no message for young, remain oriented progressive people. Frankly he's had no message for anyone as far as I can see, even the gammons he seems to want to get into bed with.

I feel like I've been reading this on here for the last 10 years. They're never fucked.

I suspect it's really the left versus the centre (broadly) - doomed to do this for years on end without realising that they're not going to get anywhere without each other. And the Lib Dems. And the SNP. And the Greens. Labour as a viable party for winning power in its own right is done, it's been too rife with turmoil for the better part of a decade now and that has splintered its support. Starmer is not the messiah establishment Labour thought he'd be and I don't think we need to wait another 3 years and watch him doom us to a further 5 at the hands of the Tories, to be able to see that. We need establishment (New) Labour and Momentum Labour to both recognise that they are living anachronisms and completely irrelevant. And to start over from there.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/22/labour-will-build-a-better-britain-for-working-people Keir has spoken to the country and come up with the following: 1 - Tax hikes bad, Labour will reverse. 2 - Decentralise power - bizarrely linked to Brexit. 3 - Waffle about providing opportunity. This is his bid to win over the right leaning middle, I assume. Unimaginative, obvious, and devoid of any meaningful vision or strategy. Nothing to get excited about. But who knows, maybe full bodied beige is the way to victory.

I mean even without the BBC being servile, the opposition prefer to go to war with themselves anyway. We're going nowhere other than Tory for a few good years. We need a new Blair desperately.

I think the BBC is in trouble, aware that it's not long for this world if public opinion remains as it does, and is pandering as best it can. It has a choice to make. It can be be truthful and honest, and be disbanded by the government to the cheers of right wing fuckmuppets everywhere, or it can pander to them until its not recognisable as anything other than a Daily Mail variant, having long since been abandoned by intelligent people and yet still despised by the ageing boomers it yearns for the approval of. Seems like it's chosen the latter.

5 innocent kids.. seriously? That's fucking tragic.

This article doesn't say much though. The solitary point it makes in defence of withdrawing is that the cost of lives in maintaining the status quo remains significant. And that's fair enough but there's not enough detail given either in this article or in the one it links to, to actually be able to firm up that judgement. The rest of the article is attacking the press - and I'm normally right on board with that, but I'm afraid that Biden having been elected by 83m Americans and being supported by 70% of his country doesn't actually make him right, despite what the article appears to be claiming. It just makes his decision popular. It further claims that we shouldn't trust policy experts and military officials over a civilian generalist, which I find bizarre. I went into that one with an open mind but it's usual guardian style "look at us giving the floor to both sides of this without actually putting a credible argument forward" stuff. You made a better case for this the other day than this article does.

True, but they'll have to invade Taiwan if they want that back. Which they do. I'd estimate within 10 years. And don't forget they have a populace full of raving nationalists. Expansionism may well become a bigger part of their plan once the US declines. Either way though, I don't want China to be the world super power. I still think far worse than the US. Xi Jinping has been more and more aggressive and recent times in both speeches and policy. Would far prefer Europe to take over again, possibly with support from Russia in a post-Putin era. Either way, China replacing the US is not good news in my book.

True, but the US retreating from the world stage like this is going to create a vacuum of power and encourage countries like China to go on the take. The whole thing is worrying to me, I'm not personally of the opinion that Western civilisation is all bad and I fear for people elsewhere. Maybe that's arrogant but it is what it is. I do feel that we had a responsibility to Afghanistan after everything we did, and I do not think anything we have done here meets that responsibility. At least we're taking refugees I suppose.

I want International political consensus to achieve things, eventually evolving into the elimination of the nation state entirely - the vehicles for delivering this are breaking down though. I don't want the US to be world police specifically, but I do want someone to do it - and I don't think we're quite ready for a real consensus yet.

I have strong concerns about China being a far worse global issue than the US ever has been - and the US stepping back from the world stage has emboldened people like Bolsonaro with all the consequences that has had for climate change. We need a strong US until Europe or some more mature power can replace it. Surely the alternative is that we go back to cold and hot wars between major powers. I don't like US imperialism or aggression, but I'd support one world government style solutions to problems, and with the US shrinking into the background that just feels further away than ever. That's not really the topic here of course, but it's my concern. And my rage about Afghanistan concerns how little they appear to care about the brown people they've just left behind. EDIT - will also add that this decision seems pretty popular with the yanks, which is I expect why it's been done. He's made himself look weak by how terribly it's gone, but the actual decision seemed to be welcomed.

Just gonna have to agree to disagree, I guess. Still maintain that this has made the US look very weak, can't see any other angle on that. Maybe it was inevitable as you think, but I'm having a really hard time believing that this couldn't have been handled far better. Still, the US is in decline. Not sure what else we can expect at this point.

The solution was competent and robust withdrawal to give the remaining civilian and military forces time to organise themselves to oppose a bloodthirsty and murderous regime. All I'm getting from this withdrawal is arrogant, imperialist sentiments that the lives of the local people don't matter in the slightest. That's what is so enraging about it. We went in without a care or thought about these people, occupied the country for 20 years, and then threw them to the wolves. Its just disgusting.

If I were China, I'd be accelerating plans for Taiwan and HK. The US is going to do fuck all, that much has been signalled.

I would find it hard to believe that most if any levels of Afghan government and military had much more forewarning about this than we did. No we don't stay there forever, yes we never should have gone in, but to call all Afghani people who joined the democratic side "in it for the money or corrupt" is just poor taste IMO. Viewed differently, what we have done is spent 20 years rooting all all the pro-democracy elements that the Taliban might have struggled to deal with themselves, and handed them over on a plate. What exactly would have stopped US forces from continuing to occupy Kabul in full until they had evacuated everyone they needed to? Like fuck would the Taliban have launched an out and out attack on a full US contingent of soldiers. It's because Biden doesn't give a fuck about the lives lost. Not sure I can be convinced otherwise. America first, no matter the cost.

Not exactly what I meant although I can see how it needed further explanation. Trump devastated America's World standing and rather than redeeming it, with Afghanistan, Biden appears to have reinforced the perception of weakness that Trump created. That's all I meant. America looks more feeble now than at any time in living memory, IMO.

In a private conversation in 2010 with Holbrooke, the book says, Biden argued that America does not have an obligation to Afghans who trusted it: “Fuck that, we don’t have to worry about that. We did it in Vietnam, Nixon and Kissinger got away with it,” We're just following in Biden's lead. This whole thing has been a complete shambles. America looks even more pathetic at the moment than it did under Trump. Granted, Trump did a lot of the damage there for Biden to start with, but at his first real international test, Biden has taken a step down rather than up. This whole fiasco does such a disservice to everyone who worked and died for Afghanistan for 20 fucking years.