Rayvin

I think because of the way the whole thing has been handled so far, No Deal kind of has to be on the ballot. Too many politicians have made it sound credible. I do see what you're saying though, and i think its possible they will remove it. Labour seem fairly clear on that at least. As for Zerosum, one point you made that I was curious about. In your view, how was Mays deal anything other than hard Brexit? It killed freedom of movement and took us out of all institutions if i remember rightly. I ask because you refer to it as a hard-ish Brexit.

I think she was getting flak because on paper it sounds ridiculous - negotiate a deal and then campaign against it. But, having said that, if you think it through it's actually not as crazy as it sounds. People who are deriding her are talking as if Labour believe they can get a super special awesome deal (the one Leave talked about I guess). Apparently they don't believe that. What she appears to suggest is that Labour do the best they can do to get something resembling a coherent deal that doesn't annihilate the country, and then offer people a vote on it while telling people, quite frankly, that remain is still better than the deal they've achieved. I don't think that breaks any logical thinking. As for your specific point, I've seen a lot of different opinions on this. There are some who think it should just be Deal Brexit or No Deal Brexit. Some who think it should be Remain or Deal. Others who think it should be No Deal, Deal or Remain. I'm not sure I've come across anyone so far who thinks it should specifically be No Deal vs Remain but that's probably just because there is no way No Deal would win that. As for me, I agree with you - I think it should be No Deal vs Remain. Mostly because if they throw a deal in, there's a chance it might win.

I have just read in the Guardian though that Boris' strategy will be to resign and effectively give opposition parties 14 days to agree on whether they can form a coalition government (presumably Corbyn heading it), or we have a GE by default. There is a set time frame for the GE under such circumstances, and it would fall on October 29th, too late to avert No Deal. Doubtless a coalition will be formed, but which of them wants to carry the can for ending Brexit? I actually think Ken Clarke might well be the best bet. He has nothing to lose.

Apparently Labour's legal advice has established that it didn't change anything materially. I'm a bit wary of it myself but the lay of the land appears to be that it's meaningless. I think the gist was that it set out that the extension would be on the basis of securing May's deal, but it doesn't actually compel Parliament to vote for the deal so it's really just a nothing of an amendment.

Lords has approved Benn - it gets royal assent on Monday, at which point Boris asks for a GE vote, everyone votes it down (assuming Bercow even lets him do it) and then Parliament gets shut down at the end of the week. I think the biggest remaining threat to a second referendum is actually the notion that Boris might get a deal.

Cameron basing himself out of the US now it seems. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/06/rare-two-headed-snake-nicknamed-double-dave-found-us

Yeah it's a good interview. Has no issue with calling Johnson a liar as well, which is nice to see.

Labour will not vote for an early referendum. This means that the Tories have been outplayed in the Lords, since they dropped the filibuster for this very reason. Johnson will cry 'chicken' but honestly I think people will be more frustrated about him than they will be about Corbyn. He's also almost certain to resign by the sounds of things, rather than go to the EU.

Consider me brainwashed by the media on this one. I've caught myself a couple of times but its a hard one to shake.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/05/corbyn-poised-to-reject-demand-for-15-october-election Labour going to wait by the sounds of it...

I have just watched Johnson talking for ages at a press conference concerning increasing police numbers and he's just a rambling moron. Aside from anything else, he's incapable of making coherent sentences let alone arguments.

I think you could quite possibly be right, but I also think that the situation may be deteriorating quickly in terms of 'how the public see things'. I'm not sure Boris is coming off all that strong at the moment. Conversely, if Corbyn can just shut up and sit down for a bit, avoid doing anything stupid and force Johnson to humiliate himself by asking for an extension, he might win some people over.

From the Daily Mail comment section - just one comment, sure, but still: After witnessing the shenanigans of the last 3 years I won't put my trust in the Tory party unless we leave the EU first. I have no faith left and the votes in Parliament to stop Brexit will continue. I would advise the 17.4 million who voted leave to give their vote to Nigel Farage. He hasn't wavered in his wish to leave the EU.

I'm not a Swinson advocate on anything other than Brexit, but I am curious how anyone can possibly be "proud" of the utter shitshow that austerity has proven to be. If nothing else it demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what the fuck has actually happened in the past 5 years.

I mean, that doesn't seem particularly objectionable on the face of it. Some people value gender identity as more important than the merits of individual human beings. It's just how society is. And I don't agree it should be like that, but as has been said, this is the world we live in.

Tbf, if it was one of those "she's a woman and it's important to have a statue of her to inspire young girls, etc" kind of articles then I think that's forgivable. If it was advocacy of her politics and the "good" she did for the country, then I find it repellent.

Are you fucking serious? At some point in the future, Labour are going to fucking obliterate her with that

Swinson delivered a very good anti-Boris speech yesterday, I was impressed with it. Having said this, beyond her Brexit position I have no idea what she even stands for. I would love to hear her articulate which of Corbyn's policy positions she objects to though.

The LDs are going to be in a stronger position after any upcoming GE than they are now. Maybe she has the clout to demand that. In which case she enables a BP/Tory coalition, as the next most viable alternative, I would think. I just can't see her doing that.

Fucking good afternoon And yes, it's.. I mean none of this surprises me anymore.

That she may be, but she's also staunchly Remain. She's polar opposed to the Tories on Brexit and I don't think the Lib Dems, if faced with a coalition prospect that delivers a second referendum, could possibly turn it down even if it meant enabling Corbyn. Not without betraying their voters all over again and heading for another decade in the wilderness.

I don't think Corbyn will get in either, but I think that's largely because his Brexit position isn't going to change - I mean I was a long time backer of his and I won't vote Labour next time out principally because of that. I could see him perhaps getting in through a coalition government. And you said Momentum were responsible for creating the huge fuck up - what would a stronger opposition have done differently? Assuming they had the same number of MPs as Corbyn does now. Unless you believe that Labour would have won more MPs last time without him, despite having a 10% increase in vote share. Or is it that if Corbyn had not been leader during the referendum, none of this ever would have happened because instead of 67% of Labour voters going for Remain, 80% of them would have (the number required to break even against the Remain/Leave differential), a higher proportion of its members than the LDs and even the Greens if I remember rightly.

How have Momentum caused this over and above the Tories, exactly? In the 2017 GE, Corbyn got 40% of the vote. The Tories got 43%. That's a decent chunk of the electorate. Labour are down in the polls at the moment only because 50% of their 2017 voters have abandoned them for the LDs, because they want to Remain.

Not if we have the people's vote first. And also, Johnson is going to be compelled to ask the EU for an extension, days after saying he would do this under no circumstances. That kind of thing will drive people to the Brexit Party even if he didn't have a choice. And if he resigns rather than go through that, then we have who, exactly, leading the Tories? Gove? I'm not sure it'll be enough, they have no one left except Rees-Mogg who has been visible on Brexit particularly.

Yep true. It might de-toxify Corbyn in some ways, but in other ways it looks like the chaos in the Tory party has spread to Labour. I think Corbyn is generally doing ok at the moment though so I'm going to wait and see before judging him.