Rayvin

I dont think theyre as bad as the Tories. If nothing else New Labour were more competent. Tbh though maybe you're right about them being able to defeat the Tories in Corbyn's position. Unfortunately i wouldn't be able to vote for them though.

I was under the impression that Labour was continuing to flip flop on Brexit. You know what though, if further down the line the Tories finally nail the plan for Brexit and it is, as predicted, an absolute shambles with hardly any public support - and then Labour rally around the single market as a sane solution in response, you guys are never going to hear the end of it from me Kind of like how I never hear the end of your bleating about Corbyn now

Yep, so the Tories forever. Ever lowering levels of competence. At some point a centre left party will split off from Labour, obliterate the left wing, and deliver a 200 seat majority to the Tories. The NHS will be sold off, people will be dying in their homes as heating becomes too pricey over winter and healthcare out of reach of the poorest in society. Disaffected youths will form gangs in the inner cities, with police unable to control them due to ever increasing cuts. Soon only privileged areas can be protected properly, leading to segregation of rich and poor with the former in gated communities. Or we could vote for a guy who wants to make the world a little fairer by using a fiscally responsible strategy of borrowing to invest, which would very likely hurt those at the top a bit, but which would demonstrate that we really are 'all in this together'.

I so badly want to apologise for that...

Aha, and naturally, that's what they were all thinking when they had that leadership challenge? Fearing for their own positions?

I would have done that and I'm a Remainer.

Yeah no way am I getting involved in this one again No thanks. It doesn't even matter anyway, whatever his personal beliefs are, he followed party line on Brexit and urged Labour to vote Remain - which they did. 65% of Labour voters went Remain. Eclipsed only slightly by the Lib Dems at 68%!

How is that clear? I remember what he was saying in the run up and it was pro-Remain with touches of 'we should push for democratic reform within the EU itself. If you're basing it on his position following the referendum, most of Labour has gone with him on that. Were they all closet leavers?

What can the Tories offer that will appeal to anyone once Brexit is out of the way? More of the same?

Well, I think zerosum might be a Tory. He waded into the politics threads on the EU debate but didn't get as embroiled as you (he's pro-Brexit). We don't get that many though, and it really is important to work out whether they're wumming or not.

Sane.

Then I humbly submit that Renton is no longer a socialist He's a Blairite ffs, and while I will accept readily that he is socialist in some ways, he's clearly a proponent of the centre more than the left. Although tbh, I agree with every word of that quoted post.

Tbh I don't really agree with the Lords having any real power except as a sense check for Parliament. If you'd asked me pre-Brexit I would have said it needs to go. But that was before I realised collective insanity was a viable government policy. Now I think as a check and balance it could be valuable. It could even reign in a "socialist" government, were we ever to have one.

You mean because it's politically convenient for your side? No. Let's wait until they're blocking something left wing and then abolish it.

Yep, quite possibly true. Still though, Labour can't be allowed to go back to the centre without reform first.

All that's going to happen is that Labour will do less well than whatever anyone thought they should, and we'll descend into distraction from Tory incompetence once again.

It's a local election, just vote for whoever is likely to do the best job.

I can see them lacking the competence to avoid such a thing, yes.

Has to be a wind up. Has to be.

Are you still confident it'll be "brino"..?

So it's good news then.

Renton isn't a socialist man Why does the right think that anyone left of Thatcher is a socialist? As far as I know, no one on here is a socialist. Not even me Also, wait, are you claiming that Neoliberalism hasn't been royally fucked in the past few years? With idk, Brexit for instance? Neoliberalism being the ideology of Thatcher.

Is that good news or bad news? I get that it's been thwarted by the psychos, but have they made it a more even run between sanity and lunacy now?

Why would you get banned for this? I recall us having banned some heavily pro-Thatcher guy some years back but it was all he talked about and came up across the forum, so that the whole general chat section was arguing with him. He got about 200 posts in 48 hours.

Venezuela The strawman resorted to by the internet right wing 'thinkers' who can't actually challenge Labour's current policy direction with anything of substance.