Rayvin

Well, that or Brexit itself. Although tbh CT, how has the Remainer revolt fucked the country? What has happened because of Remainers that has made the situation worse?

Whether this vote has any consequences for the Tories, I'm not sure. I'm tempted to say it doesn't really since their position on this is actually clear. If Corbyn joins the government in opposing the single market however, Labour are dead. If he can make a compelling case for staying in by pointing the finger at the Tories and noting how poorly this has been handled (and I really think a narrative can be forged around that point given how woolly all the solutions put forward so far have been) then he will win the backing of the majority of his party, and unite the centrists and the leftists within Labour around a single cause. The membership will back him comfortably, the local elections seem to show that the collapse of UKIP has sent people to the Tories anyway so it's hard to argue that he even has much to gain there. The only thing I noticed when reading up on this is that a number of his policies would be difficult to achieve under EU rulings (state interference in the economy, etc). Maybe that's in his mind - but it isn't worth the collapse of everything else, party and country alike.

I know. I'm just saying that when he doesn't, that's it for his movement.

Nice! Stardew is a time sink but I have found it addictive Obviously Zelda is amazing. Enjoy!

@ChezGiven is back?

So the Lords has forced the government into a vote on the single market. That's good, it'll impose some backbone on all involved. It also means Labour's strategy of fudging the issue is dead once the vote occurs. I think my position on this now is that if Corbyn can't whip Labour into voting for the single market, he'll lose what support I have continued to give. As much as I love a number of his policies, the EU really is the line in the sand, and the single market is our last hope of recovering something from this. It will split the membership and the whole movement will fall apart. Honestly, I think his only option now is to go all in on the single market. As for the Tories, I assume they're going to vote out of it - so we'll come down to a straight run off between how many pro-Remain Tory rebels there are, versus the number of pro-Leave Labour MPs.

I dont know enough about it. I'm not one of those nazi spotting leftwingers. Having said that, Fist seems well informed about this and he is actually one of the people whose opinions i have a lot of respect for on here.

Ok I missed the middle section of this thread - what the actual fuck That 10 point evisceration was a highlight Having said this, I don't think spacey is a nazi. Misguided maybe, but not a nazi. And I would know (on both accounts, I hear you roar).

Not bald either

Theresa May is the least competent politician of our age, possibly in all of history.

Are the other Tories as complacent as you? This bodes well, if so. I mean what harm could thousands of motivated young people with loads of free time to go out canvassing possibly do? I can sort of respect the idea of disliking Momentum as a 'far left, radical movement', but given the efficiency with which they took over Labour, I don't know if I would consider them to be ineffective.

The argument isn't over though. The argument will continue until someone comes up with a better option for how we can grow in the future, than staying in the EU. You must realise that in 20-30 years time, we're going to do this again, and we'll vote back in again. There is no better alternative to being in the EU - certainly not that has been presented so far.

We're in trouble then.

Brexit itself is political and not practical man, don't start pulling at that thread.

Have I insulted you...? I argue with you but I dont recall making any such comments. But thanks?

I'm not even saying anyone here is wrong about Corbyn, but Renton specifically mentioned Neoliberalism as if that was the alternative to Corbyn. I'm not voting for it.

I'm not getting a rise out of you...am I? Look we've been round the houses on this before, you guys drew me into this so i dont know what you expected.

In which case why are we reading anything into the results of these elections at all? Well I'm not tbh, so why are you, is the better question. And i dont disagree with Renton fwiw, I'm just throwing your logic back at you.

Without Brexit i think they would have. Unfortunately the radical agenda the public went with was a right wing one, because it was served up first. And also, i would add, appeals more to the baser urges of the electorate.

The public were ready to break under austerity and would have kicked the government with any radical agenda. So I'm going to just flat out disagree with you on that one.

And? His vote makes Labour look weak, increases uncertainty and reduces stability in the party. Remember that:

Not yet it isn't. Although Renton did just vote for a non-Labour candidate.

I've been saying that austerity produced Brexit since the damn thing happened. And Labour under Miliband refused to oppose it. So... you've heard me say this before is all I'm saying.

Fair point CT. I'll judge the policy positions of whoever follows Corbyn, assuming it isnt one of the centrists. If i can support enough of them, they get my vote. If i can't, I'm ignoring the whole shitshow. If that means the Tories then that's on the people who voted for them. New Labour is just a slower descent to the same place though, and their failure to oppose austerity is what landed us Brexit.

Remind me, what was the New Labour stance on austerity? Its not a matter of principle. I'm just not going to enable the shit anymore. Same position i had pre-Corbyn. I wont be alone either. Had the Corbyn experience been allowed to run its course without the levels of bitching, lying and sabotage from the rest of his party and the press, i might have tried to find the effort to hold my nose and vote... but frankly they're not worth my support. None of them.