Rayvin

The only justification to take it out though, is if it needs to be spent before it would have been earned anyway. So we're talking an intent to spend £140m this year, in some form. Could be what Polarboy says, depends on how much cash the business had available to it.

Well said IMO.

I'm not entirely sure what this proves mind you - his favourability rating amongst a subset of people who are pre-defined as intending to vote for him is quite high. All we can infer from that is that these presently pro-Labour people are also +57 pro Starmer. There's not enough information there to draw any other conclusions about his overall strategy as the totally number of 2019 Conservative voted who currently say they would vote Labour could be 25 people. The fact that he's viewed more favourably than Sunak and Truss is something.

It's possible that they've held off because, if getting better sponsorships in a years time is indeed going to be the intended outcome to all of this, they may well have been watching and appraising the business done by others (West Ham in particular for my money, I suspect that's who we're targeting position wise this season) in order to ensure we measure up. At this stage they should have a clear idea of where our squad is compared to everyone else, who we can get in, and what it will take. And honestly, the only real reason to take out an £80m loan like this in advance of earning it over the season, is if you intend to spend it pretty much immediately. The cost of the loan is what they're paying for speed.

Just putting it out there, but all sides could have known this was coming - he may have fallen on his sword to give Labour the opportunity to distance themselves from the issue before it kicks off. Could be that he fancies another role in government when the time comes. It certainly all happened very quickly.

That is indeed the problem, and the horse is already bolting - can they shut the stable doors quick enough? I think Renton is the canary in the coalmine for this tbh

I think that's a pretty reasonable stance.

Reaching a bit, but loans are generally against the run of play in Islam, no? I appreciate that it's more about making money out of the loan, but there may be enough here to muddy the water sufficiently that they'd simply prefer to use a bank. Other than that, I agree that it's about deferring sponsorship deals until we're in a stronger position. Skipping a year forward if it works.

I wanted to get into this but I've found that I'm oddly in the same boat as Wykiki. England's mens team has just killed international football for me over 25 years. I just can't make myself care. I was more enthused watching the highlights of the 4th tier NUFC women's team. I agree the standard looks decent tbh, they must be approaching lower league level in some senses now.

Mental stuff from the "Labour" party.

I do want to add that I understand the points of view the others have on this. I'm not really saying I'm right, just that I personally can't compromise on this. Each to their own though.

You're doing the lord's work

Labour did have an official policy on Brexit - I know they did because I walked out of the party over it. Their official position was to get on with it. In 2019, due to serious pressure from the membership, they relented and offered a second referendum option (and I rejoined the party, only to leave once again when Starmer walked us back out of being pro-EU again). In the original vote, I've posted on here before, Labour and the LDs were close to identical in terms of the number of people who vote for those parties supporting Remain: The true pro-Remain party is the Greens.

Who is arguing this presently?

I can't do it. I can't do this bit. I understand fully everything you're saying, I know this is how a lot of you are seeing it, but this position is so absurd, so damaging, and frankly so fucking childish, that I will not have anything to do with it. We're saying that we have to bend over and buy into a delusion for people who are stupid and insecure. Just no. Not doing it. They can fuck off - as I said, I will die on this hill. And I'm aware, incidentally, that this isn't just about Brexit in the end - people are struggling with inflation, with shortages, with organisational chaos that impacts their lives in a very real way. I know this, it affects me too. I'm not untouched by the consequences of the Tories winning again. I'm self employed and have a variable workload that at times is impacted negatively by my mental health challenges - I still rent because I can't build up money reliably enough to buy (plus buying as a freelancer is also very challenging). I have a partner who can't work and, as an EU citizen, isn't entitled to any manner of benefits - so I support both of us on what I earn. I'm not going to pretend that there aren't people who have it far worse, but I'm far from untouched by this shitty government. And even despite that, I would take another 5 years of the Tories if it brought us closer to actually fixing this. I might kill myself during that 5 years, but at least I could haunt the fuck out of Johnson if that ever happened.

It's not about not voting, I'll go Green. Maybe that's tantamount to the same thing, but there has to remain a bloc of people who Labour perceive that they have 'lost' for this conversation ever to move back in the right direction again. If we don't stand up for the things that matter, we don't get them back. Your pragmatic reality looks very sensible -right now- but I would put to you that I have a pragmatism that spans more than one electoral cycle. This is about the war, not the battle. If we lose the next election with firm representation for the truth, then we have at least still held onto the truth. If we win it by sacrificing the truth, we aren't getting that back. Labour cannot be allowed to sacrifice the truth and for it to cost them nothing because fundamentally, the cost of my vote is the only thing they give a flying fuck about. It is the only way to send that message. Finally, just going to point out that more than 50% of the country voted for remain leaning parties. There is a perpetually thwarted "decent" majority in this country, if not all socialist, and we are nowhere near as furious as we should be that it is prevented from actually achieving its goals. I'm not particularly a socialist either for what it's worth, I think capitalism has a lot of value to add - I'm pretty middle of the road despite what tends to be assumed about me. This isn't about socialism or anything other than Brexit for me.

What about all of this refusing to blame Brexit for various delays and issues? It's going to get worse ahead of the actual GE - when we get into debates and so on and every journalist and presented out there knows this will be an uncomfortable question. They will have to lie. I mean Starmer has a fantasy 5 point plan to "make Brexit work". The implication they're pushing here is very much that it can work - that there is some version of reality where cutting ourselves off from our largest trading partner and political friend is somehow something which can have a positive outcome. Aside from the fact I find it nauseating, it is an incredible gamble for Labour because they lose the high ground in full with this. If they can't make Brexit work in 5 years then we really are fucked. If there were easy answers to the issues being caused by the greatest political fuck up of our lifetimes, even the Tories would be taking them. This is directly from Labour's homepage and it makes me so angry I'm not even going to comment on it beyond noting what is attributed to the phrase "short term fixes" with absolute incredulity: The Government have missed Brexit opportunities time and time again. It beggars belief that during a cost of living crisis that they still haven’t cut VAT on energy bills. Labour will be sharper than this. We will use our flexibility outside of the EU to ensure British regulation is adapted to suit British needs. That is Labour’s plan to Make Brexit Work. It is a plan that puts the divisions of the past behind us and seizes on the challenges and opportunities of the future. In 2016, the British people voted for change. The very narrow question that was on the ballot paper – leaving or remaining in the EU – is now in the past. But the hope that underpinned that vote, the desire for a better, fairer, more equitable future for our country is no closer to being delivered. We will not return to freedom of movement to create short term fixes. Instead we will invest in our people and our places, and deliver on the promise our country has.

You know, I think I could honestly get by with the notion that it can't be dealt with next time out but at least Labour aren't going to pretend it's a great and workable idea. That might just about sail on my end - but that's not what we're being served. We are being lied to that Brexit is actually fine but needs implementing properly. So Labour categorically is making it a talking point, and it's the same one the Tories are pushing. Why? Honestly what other reason can there possibly be beyond that they're taking those of us who know the truth for granted, and trying to buy into the lies that leave voters want to hear. I won't have any part of that charade, it's repellant. Labour are costing themselves my vote, I'm not being difficult for wanting a political party that deals in factual reality.

Fair enough, and maybe I focus unfairly on the red wall at times. Truth be told the only reason for that is that they're the only segment of leave voters who I think could come back to Labour - the rest I've considered to be beyond redemption. I take the point though.

It's a key difference in outlook. Your side of this surmises that ousting the Tories will deliver a Labour government which will stealth in a lot of useful policies which will lead us to a better future. Conversations like Brexit and nationalisation can wait for the next GE with, I assume, the logic being that everyone will have realised how amazing Labour are, and will be more tolerant of some more robust left wing ideas. The right wing press are rendered powerless in the face of this, and everything is resolved and we can freely discuss reality again. Then there's my (and NJS and SBTP, not that I want to speak for them) side of this. That Labour are not stealthing in anything, and that what we see at the moment is what we are going to get. The conversation on Brexit will be surrendered into a "who did it better" deal, and we will be farther away than ever from being able to say that the whole thing is fucking ludicrous because both parties will have staked their reputations on backing it. Brexit thus becomes untouchable, meaning the primary controllable reason for our national decline becomes untouchable. If there is not a strong show of support for the idea that the truth about Brexit and how fucking stupid it is should be made very, very clear, then we are all simply buying into the Tory victory in the war if not the battle. This means that Labour are never forced to look again at this and are never forced to accept that their fucking broad church is engulfed in a right wing hellfire - they instead move to the right themselves because they know they can take you and me for granted because we are shit scared of the alternative. But the problem is, Labour can't "out right wing" the Tories. If they try, we lose 5 more years to a government, even a Labour one, which refused to really deal with the main issues that are fucking over the country because they're too politically devastating to talk about - and then 5 years later the Tories come running back in with half a decade of examples of Labour fucking things up (because Brexit cannot be unfucked while it continues), and offer a "true" vision for what Brexit should have been. Labour effectively get them off the hook for the whole fiasco by dipping their hands in the blood, and then we are back to square fucking one with a full 10 years gone by and STILL no one will be brave enough to TELL THE FUCKING TRUTH - because it will STILL cost whoever does it the red fucking wall. And when that happens, people on here will be lining up to tell me that there is too much at stake "this time" to stick to my "principles and ideals", that the Tories are just around the corner, that my issues can come later. For this reason, the only way I would possibly countenance voting for Labour, would be if they bring in PR. That's the only outcome worth making it look like I agree that they should get on with enacting Brexit. Because it would permanently remove the suggestion that I should vote for a slightly saner insanity for fear of absolute insanity. Beyond that, I refuse to choose between decline or slower decline. That's a fucking piss poor set of options and it's only being forced on us because Labour know we are fucking terrified and will vote for anything to get rid of the Tories. That's not a dedication to some nebulous ideal on my part incidentally. That's dedication to wanting a choice better than shooting yourself in the bollocks until you bleed out, or cutting to the chase and just blowing your head off. I refuse, with every fibre of my being, to endorse Brexit. In any sense, whatsoever. Labour are lying to people, they're doing it willingly, and it is pathetic. They don't believe a word they're saying and I honestly don't think any leave voters will buy it anyway. Long term, this lying leads us to an utterly horrifying place, potentially putting us a lifetime away from rejoining - therefore, giving us a lifetime of shit compared to what we could have had. What we did have. I'm not naive enough to think that we will ever get that back now, the writing is on the fucking wall. But this is the hill I'm dying on because I very literally can't compromise my perception of reality anymore to accept this horseshit. And because I don't believe we have a fucking future without internationalism and the breaking down of nation states. "Britain's best days are ahead". Not a single fucking one of them, not even the Tories, believe that. So why do we keep choosing these empty vessels, these worthless, valueless, visionless cowards to represent us? Labour can get to fuck. The Chamberlain to the Tory Hitler. The best we can hope for, perversely, is that Starmer lies to the red wall like he lied to the membership. If he does that, you'll get an immediate apology from me for not believing that he would be such a cunt, even if it's in our favour. I'll make a single dedicated thread for it in fact. The "I'm sorry for not realising Starmer is the most cynical bastard of a politician of our time, I now fucking love the guy" thread.

Bruce accidentally did a slightly better than entirely subpar job with ASM. That's about as much credit as I've got for him.

Why are they treating this internal leadership contest as a national event? Who honestly gives a fuck?

I don't disagree about a lost generation and the importance of getting the Tories out of power. I just cannot make myself believe that the only way Labour can proceed here is to become complicit in Brexit, which is exactly what they will become, and actively trying to enable the most dangerous and damaging political outcome in living memory. A Labour Brexit doesn't get better, it just gets worse slower. So either way, we're saying that whether it's the Tories or Labour, we're heading into a worse position. That we all have to accept this. To me, that is utterly crackers. The issue isn't even Brexit, it's that we have reached a stage as a society where it is impossible to have an honest conversation about the actual factors that determine how our country runs and what it is impacted by. If it isn't possible for us to do that, what is the fucking point in any of this? We're saying there are huge policy areas which cannot be talked about and just have to be accepted while we move deckchairs around elsewhere hoping for the best. You're talking about this lost generation as if it hasn't already happened. It has. Nothing Labour is going to do will change that. We will be unfucking this for the rest of our lives, and at some stage, there is going to have to be that honest conversation otherwise nothing ever gets learned. The truth is the only thing that can lead to the changes we need to prevent this shit happening again - we need media standards on misinformation. Standards of behaviour for politicians. Constitutional protections for institutions. Voting reform. Investment in civic education. Long term planning baked into political mindsets. Until we get these things, this fucking charade from the Tories and Labour's decision to play along with it is fundamentally damaging this country for the long term. We talk here as if it is simply an unavoidable fact that Brexit cannot be discussed in terms of its realities because of the political climate, but I put to you instead that the truth is more that Labour simply doesn't have the creativity, vision or balls to win while taking it head on. That's what I find so objectionable. This is not a strong Labour party, it's a weak one that we're trying to big up out of desperation.

Honestly I'd also prefer Truss. The more painful and terrifying a situation this country ends up in, the better for all of us in the long term. There's too much risk of things moving too slowly under Sunak to be noticeable.

The Daily Mail needs to be shut down. Amongst the many things any future Labour government needs to do, a key one is enforcing press standards. In fact, standards across the board wouldn't hurt. Politician openly lying? Sacked. Newspaper fabricating stories that are found to be baseless and misleading? Fined. The Mail would be fined out of circulation within a week.