Rayvin

On the other hand, one of the key architects of this treasonous and unpatriotic outcome (don't mind me, I just like throwing these truthful but needless words in there in the hope someone who voted that way is mildly annoyed by it) is now reinventing himself as a public speaker: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/23/dominic-cummings-attempts-career-reboot-as-political-speaker So who knows where we go from here. I hope he's also delivering his speech in Russian though, he owes them that much.

I just went over to the Mail to see how they were getting on with the days news an the number of upvoted comments on there that are blaming Brexit for the mess we are in is actually pretty staggering. Maybe they're being brigaded by lefties, it's possible, but even so. Will the penny drop, one day? Even if we aren't going to rejoin, even if that argument can't be made, we should at least be able to say what a fucking disaster this has been and start reconciling with each other, start looking at how to stop such traitorous sabotage being committed against this country again.

Totally agree on your assessment of the LDs there, and that link failing is... well it's not good. Basically the same as how I see Labour in terms of their reluctance to push policy, though I suppose they're the experts. I agree with your final paragraph. Our institutions and messaging is too politicised, and should be set up in a way that it can be handled independently and in a non-partisan fashion, as much as possible. Not sure on the advisors bit, I didn't watch any of that so can't comment. My view on the disaster of 2019 was actually, again, that we didn't get a functioning electoral pact going. I think it would have been quite different otherwise since I note that Remain favouring parties actually had a larger overall number of votes. That's not everything it takes in FPTP of course, but even so.

I would like to think Labour is a bit more than slightly left of centre even under Starmer tbh... As said, I'll throw in behind PR in any sense. I still think we should do a deal with the devil on that tbh. Reform UK is a PR focused party that seems to be hovering on about 4%. Farage is a campaigner at heart and for all that we all hate him, he could help us secure this. I do share your concerns on that eventual vote though.

Does it ever bother you that we don't know what they stand for on key issues like this? I know you believe this to be strategy, and it will be, but I don't think it's the strategy you believe it to be. Your view is that they have their plans and policies and that we can trust them to pop up with those at the right moment and reveal that they've been fully in step with us all along. Right? What if they're just seeing which way the wind blows? That's what I think they're doing. And the more we shut up, the less the wind blows our way. They are career politicians and Labour in particular has spent the past 12 years reacting to things rather than getting out ahead of anything. Trust has already been broken, it's difficult to ignore that.

Sorry are we talking our wants in terms of strategy? I was just outlining my overall wishlist of political outcomes. PR may well enable EU re-entry but I don't care about it as an issue more than EU re-entry itself. I believe in the EU dream and I believe the only way to make the world safe is through large blocs of countries supporting each other and moving towards ever greater union. I would have surrendered my British passport and citizenship for an EU one very happily if the time ever came. PR matters to me because I can now see the horrors of our system without it, and because it is the ultimate revenge that can be delivered to the Tories for pissing all over us for 12 fucking years. It may help us get back to the EU sooner, it probably will, but the satisfaction I'll get from the Conservatives being utterly fucked by it is my main motivation. Remove the enemy for good. That is a long term plan I can support happily.

I can take or leave Scotland because they're a backdoor into the EU again if nothing else. Quite happy for the Scots to call that without my input tbh. I'd have it as: 3 1 -- overhaul of press standards, formal and legally enforced codes of conduct for ministers, Greater constitutional safeguards 2 I mean there's loads I want but the long term issues need the pressure faster.

Scour manifestos for the most EU aligned position and/or pivot to PR if that's on the table. If not for Labour, the LDs or Greens will have it. I don't want to spend the rest of my life in this shit mate. And for all that the current iteration of the Tories are a really bad moment in general, they're not actually the long term problem anymore. I'll vote wherever I feel I'm most aligned versus chances of winning. Labour will have to do less to get my vote than the LDs or Greens (due to a far higher chance of power), but they will have to do something.

Well then we may all have a lot less to argue about in time because I'll start telling people that Starmer is the second coming of Christ if he backs proper PR.

So for me, I don't believe Starmer is capable of standing up to the right wing press (because he never has), I don't believe he has any vision whatsoever for where we are going.... but I would vote for him if he came out in favour of policies that matter to me. He's coming up zero on both sides of the argument for me so far unless they really do go for PR which, as I've said many times, would instantly gain him my vote.

Are Labour in favour of it? This conversation becomes really simple for me if they are because I fully agree. But I wasn't aware they'd said as much.

You presumably mostly agreed with his policies though. Voting for policies, not people, I would argue is more grown up

Aye I was talking to a friend about Labour's front bench competence the other day and I have to agree, there is genuine strength there. Although one person that threw me off a bit was Rachel Reeves. I'm not sure I've heard her name come up at all, and yet she's shadow chancellor. I found that pretty odd tbh but maybe I just haven't paid enough attention. But Starmer, Cooper, Lammy, etc. There's solidity there.

Well, my grumbling aside, Labour look like they can win. I'm concerned about what the picture looks like without Johnson - who will surely not make it to the next GE - but the signs are decent if we can maintain an electoral pact. I've no idea where we go from there really but I hope it's not led by the Mail and friends.

I'm not expecting Labour to saunter into power and immediately restore us to the EU. I am demanding truth. What concerns me about Labour, I suppose more than anything, is that they haven't learned their lesson from 2010. They are still running scared of the right wing press, amending policy in response to it, and attempting to ride of the coat tails of narratives they didn't create and don't believe in. As long as they do that, they will simply never be able to be as effective and convincing as the Tories can be over the long term. I don't think we have to be ashamed of the fact that we have the views we do. I don't think we are wrong. It depresses me that we have to go through this farce and it genuinely worries me for the future, because it means that the right is setting the agenda. As they did with Brexit and austerity. As for the GE, I'm not sure how I'd react if Labour lose but I guarantee you that it wont come down to my vote which will be utterly meaningless wherever I cast it, as it always has been. This is bigger than the next GE though - you said yourself this could run on for the rest of our working lives. When is the right time to try and improve that? How much of our lives do we waste placating idiots? I just can't man.

All that may be true, but I want to express my dismay for a moment at how powerless we are in all of this. For all NJS listed those Brexit surveys as a warning that it wasn't as clear cut as we like to think, 40+% of people want to rejoin. It should not be taboo or difficult for Labour to find a way to win on that platform. At the very least, we should feel confident that we have the power to create some movement on it. In fact, we could do it through a fucking electoral pact as the data appears to show. But the appetite isn't there, Labour dont want to do it. It isn't impossible, they just don't want to. They're sticking to the decisions they made on analysis of their electoral data and they're counting on the fact that people like you are too socially conscious to make a stand. They're not dealing with the real issues, they're just taking people like us for granted to try and woo the fuckwits who got us into this mess in the first place. We are informed, aware, and compassionate voters who are being told that we can't have the reality we want because we're not dangerously ignorant and can be trusted to make a sacrifice for everyone else. I reject this position fundamentally and deeply. It entrenches the malaise, the despair and the direction. Aside from anything else, as you said yourself, there are no big ideas. We need a fucking direction in this country, and we need it pretty urgently. We cannot keep accepting the bar lowering.

So none of this article was a big surprise to me because rightly or wrongly it was what I had assumed Labour's position to be, but with my views on this, how I can vote for them?

I'm confused, won't this torpedo Labours chances of winning the election? I like Lammy, he gets an incredible amount of bullshit from right wing fuckwits and stands up and is counted despite it. Grateful to him for doing so here.

Yep, we can just let the ammosexuals crack on. Shame for the US but what can we do really.

That's HMHM mate. C'mon Fish, you're better than this.

I really think we could manage this if Labour would just get out ahead of it. The Tories hammered down to 100 seats man. I mean you've just said you want a stronger LD here, and I agree, but if they got much stronger than this they'd be the second biggest party. We can dream indeed but at some point, surely, someone has to actually make this happen.

I just went looking for polls to see how Labour were doing and came across this utterly delightful spectacle: https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/blogs/ec_constsoc_20220523.html This is what the outcome looks like based on a proper electoral pact: Party 2019 Votes 2019 Seats Predicted Votes Predicted Seats Change CON 44.7% 365 33% 101 −264 LAB 33.0% 203 42% 393 +190 LIB 11.8% 11 8% 71 +60 Green 2.8% 1 2% 17 +16 Reform 2.1% 0 4% 0 0 SNP 4.0% 48 4% 48 0 Plaid 0.5% 4 1% 2 −2

I mean I agree, as I just said, I don't think it's actually working. People are genuinely starting to get pretty fucked off with Johnson, even amongst his 'base'.

They'll certainly try their best to pin it on Labour. I know it's not a complete metric for all Tory voters but I checked the Mail earlier and while plenty of them (all) still hate Labour, there is genuinely no love whatsoever for Johnson and this government. Plenty calling him out as a liar, and some starting to demand a new political system given the impossibility of voting for either party. I'm not sure how well any of their attempts to stick this at Labour's door are landing. Maybe people can understand the strike since actually, we are all suffering.

This sounds to me to be bang on the money. I think people like True Geordie can get away with this stuff because he's got the personality to go with it, and he's built up over years, diversified, really put together a pretty high end show. This lad on the other hand doesn't seem entertaining in and of himself, and that's ultimately what'll kill him - so I agree, either he has access which makes him watchable, or he has personality which makes him watchable. Without either, he's fucked - for exactly the reason you've set out, IMO.