Christmas Tree

Since you are being so pedantic in your comment to LM I will be pedantic here - I haven't said he lied, I said it looks to me as if he has by scrapping these targets, and his impossible promise of anticancer drugs for everyone. The targets aren't in my area of professional expertise, but their implications should be obviouis to the layman - the 18 week one at least. It effectively means you may be kept indefinitely on waiting lists for elective operations. Please tell me how this can possibly be a good thing? Lets just clear this one up. What you said was..... He didnt lie. He kept his promise. 'Looks like'. It still looks like a lie to me, promises haven't been kept yet, and we've yet to find out if they will be, haven't we? So, from a lay perspective, scrapping the 18 week waiting time - good or bad? No idea, but the Royal college of nursing said.... The deputy chairman of The BMA Consultants said... Guess they agree with Cameron

Since you are being so pedantic in your comment to LM I will be pedantic here - I haven't said he lied, I said it looks to me as if he has by scrapping these targets, and his impossible promise of anticancer drugs for everyone. The targets aren't in my area of professional expertise, but their implications should be obviouis to the layman - the 18 week one at least. It effectively means you may be kept indefinitely on waiting lists for elective operations. Please tell me how this can possibly be a good thing? Lets just clear this one up. What you said was..... He didnt lie. He kept his promise. 'Looks like'. It still looks like a lie to me, promises haven't been kept yet, and we've yet to find out if they will be, haven't we? So, from a lay perspective, scrapping the 18 week waiting time - good or bad? Sorry, the promises not to cut the NHS budget HAS being kept. It is policy, it has been announced in the budget.

Cancer Drugs. Renton, you've made a few posts about cancer drugs and Cameron including.... My opinion, as you ask for, is that if it can be done then it is a great thing indeed. Moving onto fact, the policy WAS to start this program from 2011. It has changed The policy is now to try and bring this forward to this Autum. Putting the economics to one side, do you approve of this policy?

Since you are being so pedantic in your comment to LM I will be pedantic here - I haven't said he lied, I said it looks to me as if he has by scrapping these targets, and his impossible promise of anticancer drugs for everyone. The targets aren't in my area of professional expertise, but their implications should be obviouis to the layman - the 18 week one at least. It effectively means you may be kept indefinitely on waiting lists for elective operations. Please tell me how this can possibly be a good thing? Lets just clear this one up. What you said was..... He didnt lie. He kept his promise.

every time I hear the Tories harping on about the NHS it makes me laugh. So far as this particular baby is concerned, they are lying cunts and always have been. Did you know that Labour planned cuts in the NHS budget had they won the election.

A fair viewpoint but where your argument falls down is trying to compare this Conservative coalition to the 1980's tories. They are two very different things. In the same way Labour moved heavily to the right under Blair, the current conservatives government has moved to the left. This has and will only be re-inforced by the pairing with the liberal democrats. Society as a whole has changed a lot in 30 years and tying this lot in with that thinking is like tying Labour into wanting rid of the Bomb.

I voted for the cunts but I always have done, (Sort of in the family,Nan was a good friend of David Steele) Osborne has made Thatcher look like a benevolent defender of the poorest members of society this afternoon...I hope Clegg and the rest of the bandwagon jumpers can look the grass roots in the face at the next party conference.. What a load of drivel Wheres your vitriol for the fuckers who got us into this mess. Labour fucked up big time, but they improved a lot of things in this country and what they did in comparison with certain bankers was fuckin childs play....no city fuck up= little or no current recession in my book. Then no need for Brown to be blamed for everything from the 10p tax rate to the crucifiction of christ and perhaps we'd still have a government that for the most part (and despite their many and glaring faults) actually wanted to make life better for ordinary people.This lot don't and never will. But they didn't. The Labour government was the worst case of Orwell's animal farm syndrome ever. In the 13 years they were in power the gap between the richest and poorest rose. The amount of children in poverty grew and we decided to back the most right wing government in America in centuries. Added on top of that the absolute fuck up over bank regulation which gets despicable when you see that the head of RBS was whispering in Browns ear plus the corruption in Labour counvcils which I have proof of. The last 13 years saw the most un Labour Labour party in history. Spot on and very sad for genuine Labour supporters who now have to bear the shame. Relative poverty might be unchanged (or may be worse, I'd like to see some independent figures), but absolute poverty has certainly declined. Anyone with eyes and a brain should know that. Labour embraced free market capitalism, yes. There was really little option though as traditional socialism had been rejected four elections on the trot. They went for what worked, and for the large part, it did work. Besides, if Labour has drifted to the right then that should appease the likes of you, shouldn't it? Child poverty went up by 100,000 under Labour since 2004....(Labours own figures) didn't your hero say they wouldn't raise VAT in his election "promises" No he did and from the Daily Mail too http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12...x-increase.html Hardly got started and he's lied already And just for good measure......... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2...put-up-VAT.html Im suprised an old codger like you doesnt know the political difference between "we wont" and "we have no plans" If you need a refresher heres a page detailing the 27 election pledges Labour broke in 2005 including such goodies as... They lied, they did http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2010/04/labou...o-promises.html

It's not really my concern but I fail to see how you can improve quality of care without having objective targets. The NHS is certain to decline under this government. Of more interest to me from a personal point of view is what happens to NICE. Rumours are afoot big changes are coming, none of which will be good imo. Fair enough I was mainly asking from an insiders point of view as to how the targets culture over the last few years had gone down. Thought it may have been the sort of stuff you discussed with the nurses and doctors in the canteen over lunch. Naah, I'm quite detached from the clinical realities of the NHS really. I'm more involved with clinical effectivenss of interventions, and more recently cost effectiveness. Seriously though, I'm not being partisan here when I say this government doesn't seem to have a clue what its doing regarding healthcare. For instance, before the election, Cameron promised a chest of money for the provision of cancer treatments. This just sounds like popularist bullshit to me. Early days still, we'll see soon enough. If your not been partisan then you'll agree their decisions have being reduced somewhat by the state of the countries finances. Have you also noted that Asda is to start selling all Cancer drugs at cost. Just chatting about this at lunch. The clinicians are all agreed that the targets are being removed as a prelude to reducing the quality of service. Makes perfect sense if you think about it. Btw CT, Cameron had promised the NHS would not be affected by his cuts. Looks like that was a lie then. Cough, Cough What on Earth are you talking about? This budget was never going to be about funding to the NHS, that will come later, no doubt when they've checked the books again and they're strangely in a worse state than anticipated - again! I'll remind you though of what Cameron said before the election, which was basically that doctor's will be able to prescribe any anticancer drug they want regardless of whether NICE has deemed it cost effective or not. Now, that is either the most blatent example of electioneering I have ever heard - because that promise is clearly undeliverable at the best of times let alone now - or it means Cameron hasn't got a clue about the economics of the health service. So which is it in your opinion? As for this budget, really its quite underwhelming isn't it? It's been built up to be something it's not, probably deliberately. However, as the COnservatives are fixing it so that they will have 5 years of power, even though they are a minority government, they have plenty of time to screw us over. Amazing stuff, even by your standards :rolleyes: Care to elaborate what you mean? Was it a lie... yes or no...Simples Was what a lie? You said Cameron lied about not cutting the NHS budget. They have said very clearly....They are not cutting the NHS budget. they are removing targets in readiness to decrease service provision, I am fairly sure frontline cuts must be coming. They are removing some targets because they think some targets are shit. The money saved will be re-spent within the NHS. Once again they have said there will be no cuts. I know what's been promised but that doesn't mean he will keep his promises over the course of a parliament does it? I don't know anyone working in the NHS who believes there will be no cuts. We'll have to wait and see, but I stand by my comment that the reason for removing targets in the NHS is likely to be because services are going to be adversely affected. They also anounced this week that the new Stockton hospital was being cancelled - is that not a cut in your world? Now, a question for you, do you think the 18 week target was 'shit'? If so, why? Removing it paves the way back for two year waiting lists - is this acceptable to you? Okay, so you agree Cameron hasnt lied. With regard to the Stockton hospital its on public record that Mandelson promised the world pre election on lots of different projects, mainly in seats Labour were either trying to hang onto or trying to win. He promised money that wasnt there and that his own civil servants refused to sign off. The coalition have said they will re-evaluate these promises on a one by one basis and if they are "proper" projects that make economic sense in todays climate they will get the go-ahead. They have agreed with the Nissan one but not this one. I dont know enough about the 18 week target to comment, which is why I asked for your "inside" opinion. You have told me that "its not really your concern", so I guess we both need to hear the arguments for and against when they arise.

I voted for the cunts but I always have done, (Sort of in the family,Nan was a good friend of David Steele) Osborne has made Thatcher look like a benevolent defender of the poorest members of society this afternoon...I hope Clegg and the rest of the bandwagon jumpers can look the grass roots in the face at the next party conference.. What a load of drivel Wheres your vitriol for the fuckers who got us into this mess. Labour fucked up big time, but they improved a lot of things in this country and what they did in comparison with certain bankers was fuckin childs play....no city fuck up= little or no current recession in my book. Then no need for Brown to be blamed for everything from the 10p tax rate to the crucifiction of christ and perhaps we'd still have a government that for the most part (and despite their many and glaring faults) actually wanted to make life better for ordinary people.This lot don't and never will. But they didn't. The Labour government was the worst case of Orwell's animal farm syndrome ever. In the 13 years they were in power the gap between the richest and poorest rose. The amount of children in poverty grew and we decided to back the most right wing government in America in centuries. Added on top of that the absolute fuck up over bank regulation which gets despicable when you see that the head of RBS was whispering in Browns ear plus the corruption in Labour counvcils which I have proof of. The last 13 years saw the most un Labour Labour party in history. Spot on and very sad for genuine Labour supporters who now have to bear the shame. Relative poverty might be unchanged (or may be worse, I'd like to see some independent figures), but absolute poverty has certainly declined. Anyone with eyes and a brain should know that. Labour embraced free market capitalism, yes. There was really little option though as traditional socialism had been rejected four elections on the trot. They went for what worked, and for the large part, it did work. Besides, if Labour has drifted to the right then that should appease the likes of you, shouldn't it? Child poverty went up by 100,000 under Labour since 2004....(Labours own figures) didn't your hero say they wouldn't raise VAT in his election "promises" No

I voted for the cunts but I always have done, (Sort of in the family,Nan was a good friend of David Steele) Osborne has made Thatcher look like a benevolent defender of the poorest members of society this afternoon...I hope Clegg and the rest of the bandwagon jumpers can look the grass roots in the face at the next party conference.. What a load of drivel Wheres your vitriol for the fuckers who got us into this mess. Labour fucked up big time, but they improved a lot of things in this country and what they did in comparison with certain bankers was fuckin childs play....no city fuck up= little or no current recession in my book. Then no need for Brown to be blamed for everything from the 10p tax rate to the crucifiction of christ and perhaps we'd still have a government that for the most part (and despite their many and glaring faults) actually wanted to make life better for ordinary people.This lot don't and never will. But they didn't. The Labour government was the worst case of Orwell's animal farm syndrome ever. In the 13 years they were in power the gap between the richest and poorest rose. The amount of children in poverty grew and we decided to back the most right wing government in America in centuries. Added on top of that the absolute fuck up over bank regulation which gets despicable when you see that the head of RBS was whispering in Browns ear plus the corruption in Labour counvcils which I have proof of. The last 13 years saw the most un Labour Labour party in history. Spot on and very sad for genuine Labour supporters who now have to bear the shame. Relative poverty might be unchanged (or may be worse, I'd like to see some independent figures), but absolute poverty has certainly declined. Anyone with eyes and a brain should know that. Labour embraced free market capitalism, yes. There was really little option though as traditional socialism had been rejected four elections on the trot. They went for what worked, and for the large part, it did work. Besides, if Labour has drifted to the right then that should appease the likes of you, shouldn't it? Child poverty went up by 100,000 under Labour since 2004....(Labours own figures)

It's not really my concern but I fail to see how you can improve quality of care without having objective targets. The NHS is certain to decline under this government. Of more interest to me from a personal point of view is what happens to NICE. Rumours are afoot big changes are coming, none of which will be good imo. Fair enough I was mainly asking from an insiders point of view as to how the targets culture over the last few years had gone down. Thought it may have been the sort of stuff you discussed with the nurses and doctors in the canteen over lunch. Naah, I'm quite detached from the clinical realities of the NHS really. I'm more involved with clinical effectivenss of interventions, and more recently cost effectiveness. Seriously though, I'm not being partisan here when I say this government doesn't seem to have a clue what its doing regarding healthcare. For instance, before the election, Cameron promised a chest of money for the provision of cancer treatments. This just sounds like popularist bullshit to me. Early days still, we'll see soon enough. If your not been partisan then you'll agree their decisions have being reduced somewhat by the state of the countries finances. Have you also noted that Asda is to start selling all Cancer drugs at cost. Just chatting about this at lunch. The clinicians are all agreed that the targets are being removed as a prelude to reducing the quality of service. Makes perfect sense if you think about it. Btw CT, Cameron had promised the NHS would not be affected by his cuts. Looks like that was a lie then. Cough, Cough What on Earth are you talking about? This budget was never going to be about funding to the NHS, that will come later, no doubt when they've checked the books again and they're strangely in a worse state than anticipated - again! I'll remind you though of what Cameron said before the election, which was basically that doctor's will be able to prescribe any anticancer drug they want regardless of whether NICE has deemed it cost effective or not. Now, that is either the most blatent example of electioneering I have ever heard - because that promise is clearly undeliverable at the best of times let alone now - or it means Cameron hasn't got a clue about the economics of the health service. So which is it in your opinion? As for this budget, really its quite underwhelming isn't it? It's been built up to be something it's not, probably deliberately. However, as the COnservatives are fixing it so that they will have 5 years of power, even though they are a minority government, they have plenty of time to screw us over. Amazing stuff, even by your standards Care to elaborate what you mean? Was it a lie... yes or no...Simples Was what a lie? You said Cameron lied about not cutting the NHS budget. They have said very clearly....They are not cutting the NHS budget. they are removing targets in readiness to decrease service provision, I am fairly sure frontline cuts must be coming. They are removing some targets because they think some targets are shit. The money saved will be re-spent within the NHS. Once again they have said there will be no cuts.

I voted for the cunts but I always have done, (Sort of in the family,Nan was a good friend of David Steele) Osborne has made Thatcher look like a benevolent defender of the poorest members of society this afternoon...I hope Clegg and the rest of the bandwagon jumpers can look the grass roots in the face at the next party conference.. What a load of drivel Wheres your vitriol for the fuckers who got us into this mess. Labour fucked up big time, but they improved a lot of things in this country and what they did in comparison with certain bankers was fuckin childs play....no city fuck up= little or no current recession in my book. Then no need for Brown to be blamed for everything from the 10p tax rate to the crucifiction of christ and perhaps we'd still have a government that for the most part (and despite their many and glaring faults) actually wanted to make life better for ordinary people.This lot don't and never will. But they didn't. The Labour government was the worst case of Orwell's animal farm syndrome ever. In the 13 years they were in power the gap between the richest and poorest rose. The amount of children in poverty grew and we decided to back the most right wing government in America in centuries. Added on top of that the absolute fuck up over bank regulation which gets despicable when you see that the head of RBS was whispering in Browns ear plus the corruption in Labour counvcils which I have proof of. The last 13 years saw the most un Labour Labour party in history. Spot on and very sad for genuine Labour supporters who now have to bear the shame.

It's not really my concern but I fail to see how you can improve quality of care without having objective targets. The NHS is certain to decline under this government. Of more interest to me from a personal point of view is what happens to NICE. Rumours are afoot big changes are coming, none of which will be good imo. Fair enough I was mainly asking from an insiders point of view as to how the targets culture over the last few years had gone down. Thought it may have been the sort of stuff you discussed with the nurses and doctors in the canteen over lunch. Naah, I'm quite detached from the clinical realities of the NHS really. I'm more involved with clinical effectivenss of interventions, and more recently cost effectiveness. Seriously though, I'm not being partisan here when I say this government doesn't seem to have a clue what its doing regarding healthcare. For instance, before the election, Cameron promised a chest of money for the provision of cancer treatments. This just sounds like popularist bullshit to me. Early days still, we'll see soon enough. If your not been partisan then you'll agree their decisions have being reduced somewhat by the state of the countries finances. Have you also noted that Asda is to start selling all Cancer drugs at cost. Just chatting about this at lunch. The clinicians are all agreed that the targets are being removed as a prelude to reducing the quality of service. Makes perfect sense if you think about it. Btw CT, Cameron had promised the NHS would not be affected by his cuts. Looks like that was a lie then. Cough, Cough What on Earth are you talking about? This budget was never going to be about funding to the NHS, that will come later, no doubt when they've checked the books again and they're strangely in a worse state than anticipated - again! I'll remind you though of what Cameron said before the election, which was basically that doctor's will be able to prescribe any anticancer drug they want regardless of whether NICE has deemed it cost effective or not. Now, that is either the most blatent example of electioneering I have ever heard - because that promise is clearly undeliverable at the best of times let alone now - or it means Cameron hasn't got a clue about the economics of the health service. So which is it in your opinion? As for this budget, really its quite underwhelming isn't it? It's been built up to be something it's not, probably deliberately. However, as the COnservatives are fixing it so that they will have 5 years of power, even though they are a minority government, they have plenty of time to screw us over. Amazing stuff, even by your standards Care to elaborate what you mean? Was it a lie... yes or no...Simples

Totally agree with this.

It's not really my concern but I fail to see how you can improve quality of care without having objective targets. The NHS is certain to decline under this government. Of more interest to me from a personal point of view is what happens to NICE. Rumours are afoot big changes are coming, none of which will be good imo. Fair enough I was mainly asking from an insiders point of view as to how the targets culture over the last few years had gone down. Thought it may have been the sort of stuff you discussed with the nurses and doctors in the canteen over lunch. Naah, I'm quite detached from the clinical realities of the NHS really. I'm more involved with clinical effectivenss of interventions, and more recently cost effectiveness. Seriously though, I'm not being partisan here when I say this government doesn't seem to have a clue what its doing regarding healthcare. For instance, before the election, Cameron promised a chest of money for the provision of cancer treatments. This just sounds like popularist bullshit to me. Early days still, we'll see soon enough. If your not been partisan then you'll agree their decisions have being reduced somewhat by the state of the countries finances. Have you also noted that Asda is to start selling all Cancer drugs at cost. Just chatting about this at lunch. The clinicians are all agreed that the targets are being removed as a prelude to reducing the quality of service. Makes perfect sense if you think about it. Btw CT, Cameron had promised the NHS would not be affected by his cuts. Looks like that was a lie then. Cough, Cough What on Earth are you talking about? This budget was never going to be about funding to the NHS, that will come later, no doubt when they've checked the books again and they're strangely in a worse state than anticipated - again! I'll remind you though of what Cameron said before the election, which was basically that doctor's will be able to prescribe any anticancer drug they want regardless of whether NICE has deemed it cost effective or not. Now, that is either the most blatent example of electioneering I have ever heard - because that promise is clearly undeliverable at the best of times let alone now - or it means Cameron hasn't got a clue about the economics of the health service. So which is it in your opinion? As for this budget, really its quite underwhelming isn't it? It's been built up to be something it's not, probably deliberately. However, as the COnservatives are fixing it so that they will have 5 years of power, even though they are a minority government, they have plenty of time to screw us over. Amazing stuff, even by your standards

You must have been hard work as a child!!!! A day away from the usual routine watching motorcycle display teams and all that other stuff and your still not happy! Hope your mother slapped your legs and told you to stop being an ungrateful little fucker :-)

It's not really my concern but I fail to see how you can improve quality of care without having objective targets. The NHS is certain to decline under this government. Of more interest to me from a personal point of view is what happens to NICE. Rumours are afoot big changes are coming, none of which will be good imo. Fair enough I was mainly asking from an insiders point of view as to how the targets culture over the last few years had gone down. Thought it may have been the sort of stuff you discussed with the nurses and doctors in the canteen over lunch. Naah, I'm quite detached from the clinical realities of the NHS really. I'm more involved with clinical effectivenss of interventions, and more recently cost effectiveness. Seriously though, I'm not being partisan here when I say this government doesn't seem to have a clue what its doing regarding healthcare. For instance, before the election, Cameron promised a chest of money for the provision of cancer treatments. This just sounds like popularist bullshit to me. Early days still, we'll see soon enough. If your not been partisan then you'll agree their decisions have being reduced somewhat by the state of the countries finances. Have you also noted that Asda is to start selling all Cancer drugs at cost. Just chatting about this at lunch. The clinicians are all agreed that the targets are being removed as a prelude to reducing the quality of service. Makes perfect sense if you think about it. Btw CT, Cameron had promised the NHS would not be affected by his cuts. Looks like that was a lie then. Cough, Cough

Commentary in todays Times Newspaper

Does anyone know which is the most independant newspaper on the go in the UK at the moment with regard to politics. (if there is truly such a thing).

Budget Calculator Take the test to see if you will be better off or poorer. http://news.sky.com/skynews/Interactive-Gr...udgetcalculator

Should contribute to this thread more often rather than your conspiracy theories then you would realise that I certainly do

I'm certainly not averse to any kind of review of spending on its own terms - I just think there will be an idealogical element in there which I will object to - of course I also understand that's inherent in politics. Lets be fair though, there hasnt been much sign of the "nasty" tory party so far. Help for pensioners, low incomes, business growth incentives for the North East and other poorer regions. Then theres capital gains tax up, a bank levy. Even the political editor on Newsnight said all the labour MP's he had been talking too thought it was a pretty good budget.

I voted for the cunts but I always have done, (Sort of in the family,Nan was a good friend of David Steele) Osborne has made Thatcher look like a benevolent defender of the poorest members of society this afternoon...I hope Clegg and the rest of the bandwagon jumpers can look the grass roots in the face at the next party conference.. What a load of drivel Wheres your vitriol for the fuckers who got us into this mess.

Until we get details of what that involves we can't be specific but that will affect millions and I'd guess for a lot of them the effect will be worse than the gain of £200 pa. Quite a lot of the measures are extremely fair. A budget against this sort of backdrop is always going to be unpleasant to some degree however there were a lot of good things in their as well. You are right though that it will be the department cuts in October that will hold the real pain for many families. The good thing for me is that there seems to be a lot going on behind the scenes to try and make sure these cuts are as well thought out as possible. Nice to see a good bloke like Hutton looking at the pension problem as well.

Proud I would imagine.