Christmas Tree

Benefits aren't waste. The job of a government is to tax the wealthy members of society and distribute it to the poor so that no-one is left in poverty. The biggest shame is they've not been taking enough from the wealthy....and the Tories plan to take less. I find it incredible that any working man would be flag waving for increased crippling cuts. Spain aren't having it... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/10261567.stm I didnt say they were

The biggest shame is that no parties seem to want to get to grip with some of the real wastage. Child benefit should be scrapped for everybody bar the sub 15,000 families. Same with Tax credits. And if someone got to grips with the disgusting abuse of the benefit system we would save billions.

It will be no comfort to those who lose their jobs but all the talk at the moment is trying to follow this Canadian model which did really get into the detail to justify cuts rather than just slashing each department by 20%. There will be more privatisation of services which may limit some of the pain. An example of this is when governments / councils transferred council house ownership / management to private housing associations. However in reality what this is saying is that the private sector can run some of these things better than the public sector. Easy said than done, but the trick is getting the good managers, who understand the savings your department creates, higher up the food chain, replacing the "empire builders" that we all know there are far too many of. I think the coalition know that this will make or break them in five years time so there will be lots of emphasis on getting this right. You should here the bones of the plan later today from Osbourne.

That is certainly true. I have a lower post-per-day count than you though. Im a taxi driver sitting on my arse all day? Arnt you a big editor for the NHS or summit At the moment I'm just doing silly hours in the Office doing some pretty boring stuff and need some light relief. But, if we're going to get personal, didn't you say you earn 100k a year or something from your taxiing? Surely you don't get that from sitting on your arse all day? I'd have thought you'd be earning every minute of your shift. No

Frightening artcle that. Chin up, I'll google you a happier one.

That is certainly true. I have a lower post-per-day count than you though. Im a taxi driver sitting on my arse all day? Arnt you a big editor for the NHS or summit

Also just pressed the i button on the sky remote for newsnight and it says.... "With Jeremy Paxman, contains strong language"!!!!

Im not going to argue with you on this because you obviously come at this from a very detailed theoretical position. All I will say is that you could probably put 100 economists in a room and get very different answers. What I would be very interested to hear from you or anyone else is where they seem real growth coming from. Im talking the sort of growth that gives everyone that warm good time feel. Bearing in mind the crash of the finance bubble, I just cant see where the next ones coming. More and more stuff continues to be made overseas. There seems nothing on the horizon. Is it really as bleak as it seems or is there some sector that is going to do the trick.

Drooling...... Now its just a case of seeing how much the upgrade will cost through 02

We may well go into a double dip recession but I would still rather see the government taking action than one hoping the good times fairy will magic it all away. There is only one place the blame for all this lies and that is with the Labour Government. While Labourites will try and deflect blame and whisper away the years of overspending, I dont think the main electorate (the ones who change governments), will forgive them for a very long time. You still don't get it do you? A double dip recession would mean no growth, and no way to cut the deficit no matter how savage the Conservative cuts were. It would mean millions of people unemployed, especially in this region. A decade of misery for the North East, just like the 1980s. As for your 'fairy magic', what are you talking about? If you mean economic growth, well persistent economic growth, with recession 'blips', has been the norm since World War 2, hasn't it? Why would that change now? If we end up in a global depression like the 1930s we're all pretty fucked anyway - and you'd blame Labour for that I suppose. I do Renton but you seem not too and padding out your posts with lots of ;) isnt going to make it make anymore sense. Why would a double dip recession lead to millions more unemployed? Did the first dip lead to millions more unemployed? Every party was promising cuts next year. Do you acknowledge this? There is going to be a decade of misery because your lot overspent and overspent and then spent some more? The financial meltdown, which Labour did nothing to prevent, added to the debt already run up by Browns Maxed out visa. Its worse now because nobody can see where the next boom is going to come from, unless you can? The finance boom was the last biggy and its all over now? No more cheap loans? This is why cuts are needed. There isnt a boom (magic fairy ) on the horizon. Honestly, this doesn't even warrant a serious response. I'm quite disappointed actually. By failing to demonstrate any understanding of the issues at hand you've yet again shown yourself either to be an idiot or a wum. My money is on the former like. Once again the eternal question dodger strikes again. BTW, you spend far too much time on here

We may well go into a double dip recession but I would still rather see the government taking action than one hoping the good times fairy will magic it all away. There is only one place the blame for all this lies and that is with the Labour Government. While Labourites will try and deflect blame and whisper away the years of overspending, I dont think the main electorate (the ones who change governments), will forgive them for a very long time. You still don't get it do you? A double dip recession would mean no growth, and no way to cut the deficit no matter how savage the Conservative cuts were. It would mean millions of people unemployed, especially in this region. A decade of misery for the North East, just like the 1980s. As for your 'fairy magic', what are you talking about? If you mean economic growth, well persistent economic growth, with recession 'blips', has been the norm since World War 2, hasn't it? Why would that change now? If we end up in a global depression like the 1930s we're all pretty fucked anyway - and you'd blame Labour for that I suppose. I do Renton but you seem not too and padding out your posts with lots of ;) isnt going to make it make anymore sense. Why would a double dip recession lead to millions more unemployed? Did the first dip lead to millions more unemployed? Every party was promising cuts next year. Do you acknowledge this? There is going to be a decade of misery because your lot overspent and overspent and then spent some more? The financial meltdown, which Labour did nothing to prevent, added to the debt already run up by Browns Maxed out visa. Its worse now because nobody can see where the next boom is going to come from, unless you can? The finance boom was the last biggy and its all over now? No more cheap loans? This is why cuts are needed. There isnt a boom (magic fairy ) on the horizon.

looking good

We may well go into a double dip recession but I would still rather see the government taking action than one hoping the good times fairy will magic it all away. There is only one place the blame for all this lies and that is with the Labour Government. While Labourites will try and deflect blame and whisper away the years of overspending, I dont think the main electorate (the ones who change governments), will forgive them for a very long time.

Sorry

Camerons speech on spending cuts Part 1 Part 2

NO! You really just don't get it do you? Making cuts in a recession is completely counterproductive. You do realise we are out of recession? You also realise that all parties planned to make big cuts? You also realise that the Tories decided to make 6 billion of savings this year to AVOID labours hike in National Insurance next year? My point was that all parties should have fully discussed their own cuts policies before the election. If you don't agree with the last point you need a lie down. We are only just out of recession Your right CT would have sufficed

NO! You really just don't get it do you? Making cuts in a recession is completely counterproductive. You do realise we are out of recession? You also realise that all parties planned to make big cuts? You also realise that the Tories decided to make 6 billion of savings this year to AVOID labours hike in National Insurance next year? My point was that all parties should have fully discussed their own cuts policies before the election. If you don't agree with the last point you need a lie down.

A nice unbiassed new statesman article :-) it is almost being portrayed that Labour were going to light up a joint and ride the growth wave to safety land. Let's not forget that Labour also wanted big cuts and planned to half or reduce the defecit within a few years. They should have all had the balls to really battle this out before the election. Cowards. anyone interested near a radio...all this is about to get a good kickabout on five live at 4pm. Alternatively, there is also a programme about it on bbc3 at 7pm

Not the politics thread..... End of the world thread perhaps

Let's all hope I'm right and your wrong then

Is there a reason happy / chez that you would like us to value this Krugmans view over that of the G20? Surely the truth here is that there is no definite answer and either way is a bit of a finger in the wind, however the Tory / Canadian way is guaranteed, but does come with pain. Vincyboy apparently saw all this coming so either it's so random that nobody believed him or they chose ( as most politicians do) to repeat the popularity of the boom and let the next fuckers clean up the bust. As axeman says, it's all immaterial anyway as the path of pain has been chosen and we've all got to take a walk down it. I suppose the problems are going to come from the unions as everybody trys to look after themselves.

Per household????? All households? So if we take all the benefit households and pensioner households who can't pay and give their share to the workers in the middle, how much does that increase too?

To put it another way, if the typical household outspent its means like the government's doing, it would be spending more than £26,800 with an income of £20,500. A hard one to debate on the bat phone in the car without figures, but I guess that's a comparison to the budget defecit and not the debt so in reality it's a loan to keep up on a loan. Your family has already raked up thousansd worth of debt and now can't keep up with the payments or the food shopping so is going to billy the loan shark for an extra 7,000 a year to try and keep up. All the while your familys breadwinner is Hoping his ship is going to come in and that big promotion is around the corner. A few years down the line his ship hasn't docked, his debt has kept on growing horifically, he's now paying really sill interest rates and Billy the loan shark wants his money back. No one else will lend him anything, he loses his teeth, his wife, his kids and ends up supping cider at mill dam...... If only he listened to his neighbour, Terrence the Tory and cut his spending habits back in the day!

Once again, you ignore the fact things were going fine until the subprime crisis triggered the global meltdown and consequent deep recession. Do you want me to post more graphs? In fact Brown can even take some credit in the way he handled the acute stage of the crisis, heaven knows what would have happened had the incompetent Osbourne and 'lightweight' Cameron been at the helm. Perhaps Brown can be blamed for over reliance on the financial markets and not regulating them enough. But CT, in all honesty, do you think the Conservatives, traditional champions of the free markets, would have acted differently in this regard? I'd like to see Blair and brown interviewed at length by paxman, fuck it then Jack Bauer if Paxman got nowhere.

Have just listened to the full Cameron speech and regardless of which way you swing, we are basically fucked. Brown, Darling and Blair should be fucking ashamed of themselves as their actions over the last 10 years are going to lead to cuts that will Thatchers 80's look like nothing in comparison. I think anyone in the public sector had better hope their job is extremely front line and relevant. When you hear lines like "all the corporation tax, that's taxes from every company in the Uk won't even cover half the interest on our debt", you know it's bad. This is without doubt going to effect us all. Time to save every penny you can. Fuck the materialism thread, fuck the summer holiday thread, were doooooomed. :-(