Why?

[Park Life 71]

What is it you don't like about Allardyce? Rather than telling us about how the good points aren't valid, just tell us what the bad points are.

 

Do you think he over-achieved at Bolton?

 

How is it overachieving? By what standard do you judge, when he's had 8 years to run his own personal fiefdom? I guess if Sammy Lee doesn't get 5th now he'll be slated as absolute shite. What about the bloke at Gretna? Has he overachieved? You achieve the potential in your circumnstances. I'll judge Sam on how he does with a year with these players as compared to every other manager that has been given the same affordance. Alternatively, we could take a back step and actually look to see who is out there who really could improve this club over 5 years, not just take the bloke we know wants the job because he turned it down 3 years ago.

 

Any comparison of NUFC to Bolton is way off base. Different players, different chairman, completely different club, different exectations, hell the only thing in common is the Premiership, nothing else at all is the same.

 

You have to ask yourself would Liverpool/Arsenal ever take a chance with Sam? If not why not? His only top flight record is Bolton. Some people think that's a good thing, I don't.

 

Alternatively, If you want untried at the top, why choose Allardyce? Why not anyone else? Why not a completely unexpected and dynamic appointment, like Wenger to Arsenal, Houllier to Liverpool etc etc.

 

And frankly, most of this is down to Fred, so delusions of anything coming good now and attacking any hint of questioning is also foolish.

 

You've still not said what his bad points are though.

 

 

Come to think of it, he doesn't have many, apart from the glaringly obvious that people seem to think is water under the bridge, even though it isn't even resolved yet

 

 

My anger at his appointment is the pure bull being spouted about justifying his appointment:

 

'over-achieved at Bolton' - flawed argument, see above

 

'best for our circumstances' - he would have been here 3 years ago, don't even pretend Fred has gone for Sam because of circumstances, he is his number one idea of a top flight manager

 

'backroom staff' - this is basically spin and soundbites, Sam is certainly not the only manager who knows this stuff

 

'will stand up to Fred' - basically, when it comes down to it, no, he won't. No manager ever has. Ifyou want this, you get a director of football

 

 

Combined with the fact that yet again, no effort at all has been made to get the right manager, we have taken the easy choice once again.

 

I can't understand why you think he hasn't overachieved with Bolton. Is your criteria for overachivement? Do you have to take Wimbledon from non league to the premiership? The simple fact is that before his arrival Bolton were a first division club with no expectations other than having the odd challenge for promotion and if they did get up battle bravely against relegation. But he did more than this, he took them up, kept them up, established them as a premiership club (similar to Curbishly at Charlton) and then give them a realistic chance of qualifying for Europe and even an outside chance of snatching a Champions League spot. For me and it appears most others, that is what we would consider overachivement.

 

This whole point you have about the fat man wanting him three years ago is irrelevant when you are arguing about why people now are saying he is the best we could get currently. Three years ago I agree few people would have wanted him (although I'm sure almost everyone would have took him over Souness) but we are not in the same position we were then. At that time we had finished 4th, 3rd and 5th in three seasons, qualifying for the 2nd group phase of the champions league and getting to a Uefa cup semi final. At that time we were an attractive proposition. Now we have had three god awful seasons, we are not in europe and we don't have the same amount of transfer funds as we did. We can't expect Europes elite to come kicking our door in so most of us have shifted our expectations of who we can appoint.

 

I agree with your point that any manager should be able to bring in decent backroom staff but the simple fact is that none of our last five or six managers have done this and Allardyce has a succesfull record of it. If he did pick Gary Speed to bring as a coach I would be quite confident that he would be up to the job beacuse Allardyce's previous picks Brown, Lee, McDonald all appear to have been good at the jobs with all three going on to manage their own teams.

 

As for standing up to the fat man, none of us know whether this will ever happen but I don't have any real expectations for it. But I do believe that Allardyce would have set out certain ground rules before he accepted the job that Shepherd must have aquiesced to. This may be a false assumption but we will never know.

 

I also agree that Shepherd is unlikely to have undertaken a thorough europe wide search for our new manager, I think this is something most would concede. But that just makes me all the happier that we got SA in. No one expects fatty to carefully consider his options so we can just be grateful we didn't end up with an appointment like the last two!

 

Absolutely spot on, exactly how I feel.

 

"That's the way...aha aha...I like it...aha aha..."

[Renton 18556]

Why can't you measure where Bolton were 8 years ago against now when considering whether or not Allardyce has overachieved? What period should that judgement be measured against?

 

 

Because the club has been completely changed. Would you honestly say Keegan overachieved, or was it the result if a proper plan for advancement? There is a difference between someone using what they would expect to cope with in a situation and doing better than expected, and someone applying extra resources to improve their situation.

Who gets the credit for that? Just the chairman or was it an excellent achievement by Allardyce too?

 

So without Sam there would have been no change? Do you think without hiring Keegan that SJH would be chairman of a Division 1 club right now? Of course he gets credit but seriously, is that a criteria for appointing our manager, he can add staff to a Division 1 club when given money?

So Allardyce deserves credit for what he has achieved at Bolton then?

 

Don't be daft, he didn't achieve it, apparently.

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

Why can't you measure where Bolton were 8 years ago against now when considering whether or not Allardyce has overachieved? What period should that judgement be measured against?

 

 

Because the club has been completely changed. Would you honestly say Keegan overachieved, or was it the result if a proper plan for advancement? There is a difference between someone using what they would expect to cope with in a situation and doing better than expected, and someone applying extra resources to improve their situation.

Who gets the credit for that? Just the chairman or was it an excellent achievement by Allardyce too?

 

So without Sam there would have been no change? Do you think without hiring Keegan that SJH would be chairman of a Division 1 club right now? Of course he gets credit but seriously, is that a criteria for appointing our manager, he can add staff to a Division 1 club when given money?

So Allardyce deserves credit for what he has achieved at Bolton then?

 

And his achievements are not relevant to the job to be done at NUFC.

 

Admit it, your shoe-horning him into the job because clearly there is no appetite for anyhting else but a nice safe bet of mid-table obscurity.

[Guest alex]

Why can't you measure where Bolton were 8 years ago against now when considering whether or not Allardyce has overachieved? What period should that judgement be measured against?

 

 

Because the club has been completely changed. Would you honestly say Keegan overachieved, or was it the result if a proper plan for advancement? There is a difference between someone using what they would expect to cope with in a situation and doing better than expected, and someone applying extra resources to improve their situation.

Who gets the credit for that? Just the chairman or was it an excellent achievement by Allardyce too?

 

So without Sam there would have been no change? Do you think without hiring Keegan that SJH would be chairman of a Division 1 club right now? Of course he gets credit but seriously, is that a criteria for appointing our manager, he can add staff to a Division 1 club when given money?

So Allardyce deserves credit for what he has achieved at Bolton then?

 

And his achievements are not relevant to the job to be done at NUFC.

 

Admit it, your shoe-horning him into the job because clearly there is no appetite for anyhting else but a nice safe bet of mid-table obscurity.

Why aren't they relevant to the job?

[Renton 18556]

Presumably Wenger's experience would not be relevant to the Newcastle job either.

 

Getting more Vic like by the day tbh.

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

Presumably Wenger's experience would not be relevant to the Newcastle job either.

 

Getting more Vic like by the day tbh.

 

You forgot he's won the Premiership then? Or the style of football he epsouses? Or his youth development? Or his insistence on a Director of Football?

 

Yes, Sam's experience is exactly like Wenger

[Guest alex]

Why are his achievements not relevant to the job to be done at NUFC?

Edited May 16, 2007 by alex

[nufc4ever 0]

I told you Vic was an annoying twat, but did you listen? Ohh NO!

 

[Renton 18556]

Presumably Wenger's experience would not be relevant to the Newcastle job either.

 

Getting more Vic like by the day tbh.

 

You forgot he's won the Premiership then? Or the style of football he epsouses? Or his youth development? Or his insistence on a Director of Football?

 

Yes, Sam's experience is exactly like Wenger

 

Where did I say they were comparable? What I'm saying is, a managers previous experience is relevant to the job at hand now, whatever it is. For most people this would be too obvious even to state.

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

Why are his achievements are not relevant to the job to be done at NUFC?

 

Do we need 28 more staff members because our setup is comparable to a Division 1 club? Do we need to buy past it players and squeeze an extra ounce from them? Do we need to over-achieve to scrape the lowest UEFA Cup berth? Do we need to create a mentality of plucky contenders being outgunned around this club?

 

Or do we have a squad not bought by Allardyce that needs controlling and to be got performing now, not in 8 years time?

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

Presumably Wenger's experience would not be relevant to the Newcastle job either.

 

Getting more Vic like by the day tbh.

 

You forgot he's won the Premiership then? Or the style of football he epsouses? Or his youth development? Or his insistence on a Director of Football?

 

Yes, Sam's experience is exactly like Wenger

 

Where did I say they were comparable? What I'm saying is, a managers previous experience is relevant to the job at hand now, whatever it is. For most people this would be too obvious even to state.

 

It's not relevant if the manager's experience in question is not where the club should be aiming for. Can you not tell the difference?

[sweetleftpeg 0]

Hang on, are we saying our journey from the bottom of the 2nd Div to competing in the PL was down to John Hall and the board, and Keegan was just a lucky bit part player?

 

Good analogy. Sam will have as much success in the final phase as Keegan did. He's an improver, not a winner.

 

Can't say I agree with that like, we could have brought in a whole range of managers and just because we had a ambitious board it doesn't mean we would have come straight up and had those years of steady improvement. KK, for all his faults, was just as big a part of that. The board never carried him.

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

Hang on, are we saying our journey from the bottom of the 2nd Div to competing in the PL was down to John Hall and the board, and Keegan was just a lucky bit part player?

 

Good analogy. Sam will have as much success in the final phase as Keegan did. He's an improver, not a winner.

 

Can't say I agree with that like, we could have brought in a whole range of managers and just because we had a ambitious board it doesn't mean we would have come straight up and had those years of steady improvement. KK, for all his faults, was just as big a part of that. The board never carried him.

 

I didn't say they carried him. I'm saying he wasn't singly responsible for the meteoric rise, just as Sam has not overachieved with Bolton when you actually consider the situation as a whole. Even worse, KK managed to sign players in the first division that Sam could only dream of.

[Renton 18556]

Presumably Wenger's experience would not be relevant to the Newcastle job either.

 

Getting more Vic like by the day tbh.

 

You forgot he's won the Premiership then? Or the style of football he epsouses? Or his youth development? Or his insistence on a Director of Football?

 

Yes, Sam's experience is exactly like Wenger

 

Where did I say they were comparable? What I'm saying is, a managers previous experience is relevant to the job at hand now, whatever it is. For most people this would be too obvious even to state.

 

It's not relevant if the manager's experience in question is not where the club should be aiming for. Can you not tell the difference?

 

We're a struggling mid to low table club. Had you not noticed this?

 

This whole line of reasoning from you is particularly ironic/moronic since you have advocated that a person with no experience at all at managing in the premiership should get the job.

Edited May 16, 2007 by Renton

[Guest alex]

Why are his achievements are not relevant to the job to be done at NUFC?

 

Do we need 28 more staff members because our setup is comparable to a Division 1 club? Yes, the Div 1 analogy is probably bigging us up though. Our entire set-up is very amatuerish

Do we need to buy past it players and squeeze an extra ounce from them? Our transfer record of recent years is poor, Allardyce's is very good. He doens't ony buy past-it players but getting a few experienced defenders in to help out the kids would be a good thing, no?

Do we need to over-achieve to scrape the lowest UEFA Cup berth? So Allardyce did overachieve? I thought he didn't, make your mind up Vicky.

Do we need to create a mentality of plucky contenders being outgunned around this club?

No, that was the case at Bolton though.

 

Or do we have a squad not bought by Allardyce that needs controlling and to be got performing now, not in 8 years time?

Not saying he needs or should get 8 years to put things right but saying we need performance now is at odds with you saying managers need time isn't it?

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

Presumably Wenger's experience would not be relevant to the Newcastle job either.

 

Getting more Vic like by the day tbh.

 

You forgot he's won the Premiership then? Or the style of football he epsouses? Or his youth development? Or his insistence on a Director of Football?

 

Yes, Sam's experience is exactly like Wenger

 

Where did I say they were comparable? What I'm saying is, a managers previous experience is relevant to the job at hand now, whatever it is. For most people this would be too obvious even to state.

 

It's not relevant if the manager's experience in question is not where the club should be aiming for. Can you not tell the difference?

 

Were a struggling mid to low table club. Had you not noticed this?

 

This whole line of reasoning from you is particularly ironic/moronic since you have advocated that a person with no experience at all at managing in the premiership should get the job.

 

 

So we should get a manager that fits our current position? Or should we realise that it is the squad underperforming.

 

Sam falls between both ideals and so is a bad choice, you either want a manager proven to have what it takes to get you where you should be, or you take a chance on an inexperienced person with the right qualities. Are you saying Klinsman would have absolutely no clue what to do just because he hasn't spent 8 years managing Bolton?

[Guest alex]

Can't you read Vic?

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

Why are his achievements are not relevant to the job to be done at NUFC?

 

Do we need 28 more staff members because our setup is comparable to a Division 1 club? Yes, the Div 1 analogy is probably bigging us up though. Our entire set-up is very amatuerish

Do we need to buy past it players and squeeze an extra ounce from them? Our transfer record of recent years is poor, Allardyce's is very good. He doens't ony buy past-it players but getting a few experienced defenders in to help out the kids would be a good thing, no?

Do we need to over-achieve to scrape the lowest UEFA Cup berth? So Allardyce did overachieve? I thought he didn't, make your mind up Vicky.

Do we need to create a mentality of plucky contenders being outgunned around this club?

No, that was the case at Bolton though.

 

Or do we have a squad not bought by Allardyce that needs controlling and to be got performing now, not in 8 years time?

Not saying he needs or should get 8 years to put things right but saying we need performance now is at odds with you saying managers need time isn't it?

 

So again, we're getting to the crux of the matter, appoint Sam because of the record of the past couple of years. Chrsit, we were in the last stages of the UEFA cup in all those years, when has Sam ever done that?

 

You're fitting Sam to the job, rather than fitting the job to a candidate.

[Guest alex]

At least we agree he overachieved at Bolton anyway.

[Renton 18556]

Presumably Wenger's experience would not be relevant to the Newcastle job either.

 

Getting more Vic like by the day tbh.

 

You forgot he's won the Premiership then? Or the style of football he epsouses? Or his youth development? Or his insistence on a Director of Football?

 

Yes, Sam's experience is exactly like Wenger

 

Where did I say they were comparable? What I'm saying is, a managers previous experience is relevant to the job at hand now, whatever it is. For most people this would be too obvious even to state.

 

It's not relevant if the manager's experience in question is not where the club should be aiming for. Can you not tell the difference?

 

Were a struggling mid to low table club. Had you not noticed this?

 

This whole line of reasoning from you is particularly ironic/moronic since you have advocated that a person with no experience at all at managing in the premiership should get the job.

 

 

So we should get a manager that fits our current position? Or should we realise that it is the squad underperforming.

 

Sam falls between both ideals and so is a bad choice, you either want a manager proven to have what it takes to get you where you should be, or you take a chance on an inexperienced person with the right qualities. Are you saying Klinsman would have absolutely no clue what to do just because he hasn't spent 8 years managing Bolton?

 

You're advocating one extreme or another over compromise; I disagree. I think we'd all prefer a manager proven at the top level, one who had experience in the premier league, one who had won things (preferably the league), and one who had performed in Europe. Unfortunately, only 4 people fit this bill and none of them will come here, it's wishful thinking to suggest otherwise.

 

The other extreme, appointing a foreign coach with no club experience at all, would be far too risky imo.

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

At least we agree he overachieved at Bolton anyway.

 

I'm just fitting your point to the argument. If you think we need a manager who is good at overachieving, then you msut think we need to overachieve to reach the bottom berth of the UEFA Cup. What it must be to have such ambition!

[Guest alex]

At least we agree he overachieved at Bolton anyway.

 

I'm just fitting your point to the argument. If you think we need a manager who is good at overachieving, then you msut think we need to overachieve to reach the bottom berth of the UEFA Cup. What it must be to have such ambition!

No, I just took the question "Do we need to over-achieve to scrape the lowest UEFA Cup berth?" as inferring Allardyce overachieved at Bolton by doing that (not for the first time I might add). I must have misunderstood you. I can't think what else it could have meant though. Feel free to enlighten me.

Edited May 16, 2007 by alex

[David Kelly 1125]

Who is this mythical manager that we could get in who would show our ambition is to win the trebble?

[David Kelly 1125]

At least we agree he overachieved at Bolton anyway.

 

I'm just fitting your point to the argument. If you think we need a manager who is good at overachieving, then you msut think we need to overachieve to reach the bottom berth of the UEFA Cup. What it must be to have such ambition!

That makes no logical sense whatsoever.

I would love a manager who can make us over achieve which for us would be to constantly win things. Scraping a UEFA cup spot is overachieving for Bolton not us.

[sammynb 2934]

At least we agree he overachieved at Bolton anyway.

 

I'm just fitting your point to the argument. If you think we need a manager who is good at overachieving, then you msut think we need to overachieve to reach the bottom berth of the UEFA Cup. What it must be to have such ambition!

That makes no logical sense whatsoever.

I would love a manager who can make us over achieve which for us would be to constantly win things. Scraping a UEFA cup spot is overachieving for Bolton not us.

Think you may need to adjust your expectations a little there DK.