Why?

[Shearergol 0]

What is it you don't like about Allardyce? Rather than telling us about how the good points aren't valid, just tell us what the bad points are.

 

Do you think he over-achieved at Bolton?

 

How is it overachieving? By what standard do you judge, when he's had 8 years to run his own personal fiefdom? I guess if Sammy Lee doesn't get 5th now he'll be slated as absolute shite. What about the bloke at Gretna? Has he overachieved? You achieve the potential in your circumnstances. I'll judge Sam on how he does with a year with these players as compared to every other manager that has been given the same affordance. Alternatively, we could take a back step and actually look to see who is out there who really could improve this club over 5 years, not just take the bloke we know wants the job because he turned it down 3 years ago.

 

Any comparison of NUFC to Bolton is way off base. Different players, different chairman, completely different club, different exectations, hell the only thing in common is the Premiership, nothing else at all is the same.

 

You have to ask yourself would Liverpool/Arsenal ever take a chance with Sam? If not why not? His only top flight record is Bolton. Some people think that's a good thing, I don't.

 

Alternatively, If you want untried at the top, why choose Allardyce? Why not anyone else? Why not a completely unexpected and dynamic appointment, like Wenger to Arsenal, Houllier to Liverpool etc etc.

 

And frankly, most of this is down to Fred, so delusions of anything coming good now and attacking any hint of questioning is also foolish.

 

You've still not said what his bad points are though.

[adios 717]

No I dont, what use is a forum where everyone is a just a clone of everyone else, thats not a discussion thats just a wankfest

 

This concept makes my head hurt.

 

Depends on who the clone was. Could be disastrous.

 

Me, obviously.

 

It was more the fact that we're all clones of each other that did my head in, bit of a two-snakes-eating-each-other moment. Where does it start...where does it end?!!!

 

So anyway, are you and Alex talking to this bloke to make yourselves feel smarter or what's the craic?

[Renton 18038]

No I dont, what use is a forum where everyone is a just a clone of everyone else, thats not a discussion thats just a wankfest

 

This concept makes my head hurt.

 

Depends on who the clone was. Could be disastrous.

 

Me, obviously.

 

It was more the fact that we're all clones of each other that did my head in, bit of a two-snakes-eating-each-other moment. Where does it start...where does it end?!!!

 

So anyway, are you and Alex talking to this bloke to make yourselves feel smarter or what's the craic?

 

Boredom. Don't know if you know this but it turns out SSH is In Victa which I find quite amusing. A board of In Victa clones would reach critical mass quite quickly I'd imagine.

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

What is it you don't like about Allardyce? Rather than telling us about how the good points aren't valid, just tell us what the bad points are.

 

Do you think he over-achieved at Bolton?

 

How is it overachieving? By what standard do you judge, when he's had 8 years to run his own personal fiefdom? I guess if Sammy Lee doesn't get 5th now he'll be slated as absolute shite. What about the bloke at Gretna? Has he overachieved? You achieve the potential in your circumnstances. I'll judge Sam on how he does with a year with these players as compared to every other manager that has been given the same affordance. Alternatively, we could take a back step and actually look to see who is out there who really could improve this club over 5 years, not just take the bloke we know wants the job because he turned it down 3 years ago.

 

Any comparison of NUFC to Bolton is way off base. Different players, different chairman, completely different club, different exectations, hell the only thing in common is the Premiership, nothing else at all is the same.

 

You have to ask yourself would Liverpool/Arsenal ever take a chance with Sam? If not why not? His only top flight record is Bolton. Some people think that's a good thing, I don't.

 

Alternatively, If you want untried at the top, why choose Allardyce? Why not anyone else? Why not a completely unexpected and dynamic appointment, like Wenger to Arsenal, Houllier to Liverpool etc etc.

 

And frankly, most of this is down to Fred, so delusions of anything coming good now and attacking any hint of questioning is also foolish.

 

You've still not said what his bad points are though.

 

 

Come to think of it, he doesn't have many, apart from the glaringly obvious that people seem to think is water under the bridge, even though it isn't even resolved yet

 

 

My anger at his appointment is the pure bull being spouted about justifying his appointment:

 

'over-achieved at Bolton' - flawed argument, see above

 

'best for our circumstances' - he would have been here 3 years ago, don't even pretend Fred has gone for Sam because of circumstances, he is his number one idea of a top flight manager

 

'backroom staff' - this is basically spin and soundbites, Sam is certainly not the only manager who knows this stuff

 

'will stand up to Fred' - basically, when it comes down to it, no, he won't. No manager ever has. Ifyou want this, you get a director of football

 

 

Combined with the fact that yet again, no effort at all has been made to get the right manager, we have taken the easy choice once again.

[JawD 31]

Id have thought Sven would have been an easy choice. Or any one of the myriad of cheaper alternatives. I'm content with this appointment, I was livid at souness and unconvinced about Roeder. the biggest thing I think that you miss about this appointment is that is much much less of a risk compared to what you seem to be suggesting. An unknown like wenger or Houllier was. while that may sometimes work out, I really really dont think at this moment in time we can afford any more risk (like Roeder actually).

 

Of course you can argue that every appointment is a risk. So lets just say Sam is a much smaller risk than many others. We need stability, we need to claw our way back up the table without false promises of sexy football or sorting out problems (read: sell players) or any other shite spewed by his predecesors.

 

So far I agree with much what Sam has said. Perhaps its the same any new manager here would have had to say. But he will get my support fully and I wait with interest to see the comings and goings commence.

[Guest alex]

You know, you could just answer what people write in a post (generally I mean) rather than attribute something one person may have said (eg having a staff of 28 at Bolton being a good thing) to everybody who is vaguely positive about the appointment of Allardyce in every thread. Just a thought like.

 

All hell broke loose when I posted 2 threads in one day, I hardly think pulling up every post containing the link to the article mentioning 28 players and the many subsequent 'well, what I've heard about Sam and his backroom staff' posts would be greeted sensibly, it would be madness

You wish. Delusions of grandeur

[David Kelly 1117]

What is it you don't like about Allardyce? Rather than telling us about how the good points aren't valid, just tell us what the bad points are.

 

Do you think he over-achieved at Bolton?

 

How is it overachieving? By what standard do you judge, when he's had 8 years to run his own personal fiefdom? I guess if Sammy Lee doesn't get 5th now he'll be slated as absolute shite. What about the bloke at Gretna? Has he overachieved? You achieve the potential in your circumnstances. I'll judge Sam on how he does with a year with these players as compared to every other manager that has been given the same affordance. Alternatively, we could take a back step and actually look to see who is out there who really could improve this club over 5 years, not just take the bloke we know wants the job because he turned it down 3 years ago.

 

Any comparison of NUFC to Bolton is way off base. Different players, different chairman, completely different club, different exectations, hell the only thing in common is the Premiership, nothing else at all is the same.

 

You have to ask yourself would Liverpool/Arsenal ever take a chance with Sam? If not why not? His only top flight record is Bolton. Some people think that's a good thing, I don't.

 

Alternatively, If you want untried at the top, why choose Allardyce? Why not anyone else? Why not a completely unexpected and dynamic appointment, like Wenger to Arsenal, Houllier to Liverpool etc etc.

 

And frankly, most of this is down to Fred, so delusions of anything coming good now and attacking any hint of questioning is also foolish.

 

You've still not said what his bad points are though.

 

 

Come to think of it, he doesn't have many, apart from the glaringly obvious that people seem to think is water under the bridge, even though it isn't even resolved yet

 

 

My anger at his appointment is the pure bull being spouted about justifying his appointment:

 

'over-achieved at Bolton' - flawed argument, see above

 

'best for our circumstances' - he would have been here 3 years ago, don't even pretend Fred has gone for Sam because of circumstances, he is his number one idea of a top flight manager

 

'backroom staff' - this is basically spin and soundbites, Sam is certainly not the only manager who knows this stuff

 

'will stand up to Fred' - basically, when it comes down to it, no, he won't. No manager ever has. Ifyou want this, you get a director of football

 

 

Combined with the fact that yet again, no effort at all has been made to get the right manager, we have taken the easy choice once again.

 

I can't understand why you think he hasn't overachieved with Bolton. Is your criteria for overachivement? Do you have to take Wimbledon from non league to the premiership? The simple fact is that before his arrival Bolton were a first division club with no expectations other than having the odd challenge for promotion and if they did get up battle bravely against relegation. But he did more than this, he took them up, kept them up, established them as a premiership club (similar to Curbishly at Charlton) and then give them a realistic chance of qualifying for Europe and even an outside chance of snatching a Champions League spot. For me and it appears most others, that is what we would consider overachivement.

 

This whole point you have about the fat man wanting him three years ago is irrelevant when you are arguing about why people now are saying he is the best we could get currently. Three years ago I agree few people would have wanted him (although I'm sure almost everyone would have took him over Souness) but we are not in the same position we were then. At that time we had finished 4th, 3rd and 5th in three seasons, qualifying for the 2nd group phase of the champions league and getting to a Uefa cup semi final. At that time we were an attractive proposition. Now we have had three god awful seasons, we are not in europe and we don't have the same amount of transfer funds as we did. We can't expect Europes elite to come kicking our door in so most of us have shifted our expectations of who we can appoint.

 

I agree with your point that any manager should be able to bring in decent backroom staff but the simple fact is that none of our last five or six managers have done this and Allardyce has a succesfull record of it. If he did pick Gary Speed to bring as a coach I would be quite confident that he would be up to the job beacuse Allardyce's previous picks Brown, Lee, McDonald all appear to have been good at the jobs with all three going on to manage their own teams.

 

As for standing up to the fat man, none of us know whether this will ever happen but I don't have any real expectations for it. But I do believe that Allardyce would have set out certain ground rules before he accepted the job that Shepherd must have aquiesced to. This may be a false assumption but we will never know.

 

I also agree that Shepherd is unlikely to have undertaken a thorough europe wide search for our new manager, I think this is something most would concede. But that just makes me all the happier that we got SA in. No one expects fatty to carefully consider his options so we can just be grateful we didn't end up with an appointment like the last two!

[sweetleftpeg 0]

The fact is, this is the most positive appointment since Robson. We've even timed it perfectly ffs.

[Renton 18038]

What is it you don't like about Allardyce? Rather than telling us about how the good points aren't valid, just tell us what the bad points are.

 

Do you think he over-achieved at Bolton?

 

How is it overachieving? By what standard do you judge, when he's had 8 years to run his own personal fiefdom? I guess if Sammy Lee doesn't get 5th now he'll be slated as absolute shite. What about the bloke at Gretna? Has he overachieved? You achieve the potential in your circumnstances. I'll judge Sam on how he does with a year with these players as compared to every other manager that has been given the same affordance. Alternatively, we could take a back step and actually look to see who is out there who really could improve this club over 5 years, not just take the bloke we know wants the job because he turned it down 3 years ago.

 

Any comparison of NUFC to Bolton is way off base. Different players, different chairman, completely different club, different exectations, hell the only thing in common is the Premiership, nothing else at all is the same.

 

You have to ask yourself would Liverpool/Arsenal ever take a chance with Sam? If not why not? His only top flight record is Bolton. Some people think that's a good thing, I don't.

 

Alternatively, If you want untried at the top, why choose Allardyce? Why not anyone else? Why not a completely unexpected and dynamic appointment, like Wenger to Arsenal, Houllier to Liverpool etc etc.

 

And frankly, most of this is down to Fred, so delusions of anything coming good now and attacking any hint of questioning is also foolish.

 

You've still not said what his bad points are though.

 

 

Come to think of it, he doesn't have many, apart from the glaringly obvious that people seem to think is water under the bridge, even though it isn't even resolved yet

 

 

My anger at his appointment is the pure bull being spouted about justifying his appointment:

 

'over-achieved at Bolton' - flawed argument, see above

 

'best for our circumstances' - he would have been here 3 years ago, don't even pretend Fred has gone for Sam because of circumstances, he is his number one idea of a top flight manager

 

'backroom staff' - this is basically spin and soundbites, Sam is certainly not the only manager who knows this stuff

 

'will stand up to Fred' - basically, when it comes down to it, no, he won't. No manager ever has. Ifyou want this, you get a director of football

 

 

Combined with the fact that yet again, no effort at all has been made to get the right manager, we have taken the easy choice once again.

 

I can't understand why you think he hasn't overachieved with Bolton. Is your criteria for overachivement? Do you have to take Wimbledon from non league to the premiership? The simple fact is that before his arrival Bolton were a first division club with no expectations other than having the odd challenge for promotion and if they did get up battle bravely against relegation. But he did more than this, he took them up, kept them up, established them as a premiership club (similar to Curbishly at Charlton) and then give them a realistic chance of qualifying for Europe and even an outside chance of snatching a Champions League spot. For me and it appears most others, that is what we would consider overachivement.

 

This whole point you have about the fat man wanting him three years ago is irrelevant when you are arguing about why people now are saying he is the best we could get currently. Three years ago I agree few people would have wanted him (although I'm sure almost everyone would have took him over Souness) but we are not in the same position we were then. At that time we had finished 4th, 3rd and 5th in three seasons, qualifying for the 2nd group phase of the champions league and getting to a Uefa cup semi final. At that time we were an attractive proposition. Now we have had three god awful seasons, we are not in europe and we don't have the same amount of transfer funds as we did. We can't expect Europes elite to come kicking our door in so most of us have shifted our expectations of who we can appoint.

 

I agree with your point that any manager should be able to bring in decent backroom staff but the simple fact is that none of our last five or six managers have done this and Allardyce has a succesfull record of it. If he did pick Gary Speed to bring as a coach I would be quite confident that he would be up to the job beacuse Allardyce's previous picks Brown, Lee, McDonald all appear to have been good at the jobs with all three going on to manage their own teams.

 

As for standing up to the fat man, none of us know whether this will ever happen but I don't have any real expectations for it. But I do believe that Allardyce would have set out certain ground rules before he accepted the job that Shepherd must have aquiesced to. This may be a false assumption but we will never know.

 

I also agree that Shepherd is unlikely to have undertaken a thorough europe wide search for our new manager, I think this is something most would concede. But that just makes me all the happier that we got SA in. No one expects fatty to carefully consider his options so we can just be grateful we didn't end up with an appointment like the last two!

 

Absolutely spot on, exactly how I feel.

[sweetleftpeg 0]

Aye, spot on DK. Sometimes the truth hurts but it has to be said.

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

What is it you don't like about Allardyce? Rather than telling us about how the good points aren't valid, just tell us what the bad points are.

 

Do you think he over-achieved at Bolton?

 

How is it overachieving? By what standard do you judge, when he's had 8 years to run his own personal fiefdom? I guess if Sammy Lee doesn't get 5th now he'll be slated as absolute shite. What about the bloke at Gretna? Has he overachieved? You achieve the potential in your circumnstances. I'll judge Sam on how he does with a year with these players as compared to every other manager that has been given the same affordance. Alternatively, we could take a back step and actually look to see who is out there who really could improve this club over 5 years, not just take the bloke we know wants the job because he turned it down 3 years ago.

 

Any comparison of NUFC to Bolton is way off base. Different players, different chairman, completely different club, different exectations, hell the only thing in common is the Premiership, nothing else at all is the same.

 

You have to ask yourself would Liverpool/Arsenal ever take a chance with Sam? If not why not? His only top flight record is Bolton. Some people think that's a good thing, I don't.

 

Alternatively, If you want untried at the top, why choose Allardyce? Why not anyone else? Why not a completely unexpected and dynamic appointment, like Wenger to Arsenal, Houllier to Liverpool etc etc.

 

And frankly, most of this is down to Fred, so delusions of anything coming good now and attacking any hint of questioning is also foolish.

 

You've still not said what his bad points are though.

 

 

Come to think of it, he doesn't have many, apart from the glaringly obvious that people seem to think is water under the bridge, even though it isn't even resolved yet

 

 

My anger at his appointment is the pure bull being spouted about justifying his appointment:

 

'over-achieved at Bolton' - flawed argument, see above

 

'best for our circumstances' - he would have been here 3 years ago, don't even pretend Fred has gone for Sam because of circumstances, he is his number one idea of a top flight manager

 

'backroom staff' - this is basically spin and soundbites, Sam is certainly not the only manager who knows this stuff

 

'will stand up to Fred' - basically, when it comes down to it, no, he won't. No manager ever has. Ifyou want this, you get a director of football

 

 

Combined with the fact that yet again, no effort at all has been made to get the right manager, we have taken the easy choice once again.

 

I can't understand why you think he hasn't overachieved with Bolton. Is your criteria for overachivement? Do you have to take Wimbledon from non league to the premiership? The simple fact is that before his arrival Bolton were a first division club with no expectations other than having the odd challenge for promotion and if they did get up battle bravely against relegation. But he did more than this, he took them up, kept them up, established them as a premiership club (similar to Curbishly at Charlton) and then give them a realistic chance of qualifying for Europe and even an outside chance of snatching a Champions League spot. For me and it appears most others, that is what we would consider overachivement.

 

Anything can happen in 8 years. Look at what he was given / allowed to do. How anyone can put an estimate on what would have been an everage performance from that situation, let alone judge it as an overachievement, is beyond me. Are you really telling me that Bolton are actually a Division 1 club? The whole club has been changed, you can't judge performance now on what they were 8 years ago.

 

This whole point you have about the fat man wanting him three years ago is irrelevant when you are arguing about why people now are saying he is the best we could get currently. Three years ago I agree few people would have wanted him (although I'm sure almost everyone would have took him over Souness) but we are not in the same position we were then. At that time we had finished 4th, 3rd and 5th in three seasons, qualifying for the 2nd group phase of the champions league and getting to a Uefa cup semi final. At that time we were an attractive proposition. Now we have had three god awful seasons, we are not in europe and we don't have the same amount of transfer funds as we did. We can't expect Europes elite to come kicking our door in so most of us have shifted our expectations of who we can appoint.

 

You honestly can't see a problem in Freddy thinking he is a top 3 manager? It has nothing to do with what we need now, it is about what Fred thinks he's doing. What are you going to do when he sacks Sam for two consecutive 10th finishes? Clearly that would fit the fan expectations right now, it won't fit Freds

 

I agree with your point that any manager should be able to bring in decent backroom staff but the simple fact is that none of our last five or six managers have done this and Allardyce has a succesfull record of it. If he did pick Gary Speed to bring as a coach I would be quite confident that he would be up to the job beacuse Allardyce's previous picks Brown, Lee, McDonald all appear to have been good at the jobs with all three going on to manage their own teams.

 

That wasn't the point.

 

As for standing up to the fat man, none of us know whether this will ever happen but I don't have any real expectations for it. But I do believe that Allardyce would have set out certain ground rules before he accepted the job that Shepherd must have aquiesced to. This may be a false assumption but we will never know.

 

Fine, but don't use it as justification for hiring Sam and no-one else

 

I also agree that Shepherd is unlikely to have undertaken a thorough europe wide search for our new manager, I think this is something most would concede. But that just makes me all the happier that we got SA in. No one expects fatty to carefully consider his options so we can just be grateful we didn't end up with an appointment like the last two!

 

This is the saddest thing about this. Through Fred's incompetence, people now accept an appointment that they wouldn't have a few years ago. So what do we do when Sam's transformed the club, and found out the limit of his abilities is 5th? Perhaps then we might look for a man to go all the way, not someone who fits a totally short term view. Does anyone seriously believe Sam's claim about coming here for trophies?

 

[Guest alex]

Why can't you measure where Bolton were 8 years ago against now when considering whether or not Allardyce has overachieved? What period should that judgement be measured against?

[Renton 18038]

Who do you think was responsible for changing Bolton's status over the last 8 years, SSH?

 

Jesus wept man!

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

Who do you think was responsible for changing Bolton's status over the last 8 years, SSH?

 

Jesus wept man!

 

It might have something to do with the chairman don't you think? Or did Sam pay everyone's wages, sign the cheques and build a stadium?

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

Why can't you measure where Bolton were 8 years ago against now when considering whether or not Allardyce has overachieved? What period should that judgement be measured against?

 

 

Because the club has been completely changed. Would you honestly say Keegan overachieved, or was it the result if a proper plan for advancement? There is a difference between someone using what they would expect to cope with in a situation and doing better than expected, and someone applying extra resources to improve their situation.

[Renton 18038]

Who do you think was responsible for changing Bolton's status over the last 8 years, SSH?

 

Jesus wept man!

 

It might have something to do with the chairman don't you think? Or did Sam pay everyone's wages, sign the cheques and build a stadium?

 

 

[Guest alex]

Why can't you measure where Bolton were 8 years ago against now when considering whether or not Allardyce has overachieved? What period should that judgement be measured against?

 

 

Because the club has been completely changed. Would you honestly say Keegan overachieved, or was it the result if a proper plan for advancement? There is a difference between someone using what they would expect to cope with in a situation and doing better than expected, and someone applying extra resources to improve their situation.

Who gets the credit for that? Just the chairman or was it an excellent achievement by Allardyce too?

[sweetleftpeg 0]

Hang on, are we saying our journey from the bottom of the 2nd Div to competing in the PL was down to John Hall and the board, and Keegan was just a lucky bit part player?

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

Why can't you measure where Bolton were 8 years ago against now when considering whether or not Allardyce has overachieved? What period should that judgement be measured against?

 

 

Because the club has been completely changed. Would you honestly say Keegan overachieved, or was it the result if a proper plan for advancement? There is a difference between someone using what they would expect to cope with in a situation and doing better than expected, and someone applying extra resources to improve their situation.

Who gets the credit for that? Just the chairman or was it an excellent achievement by Allardyce too?

 

So without Sam there would have been no change? Do you think without hiring Keegan that SJH would be chairman of a Division 1 club right now? Of course he gets credit but seriously, is that a criteria for appointing our manager, he can add staff to a Division 1 club when given money?

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

Hang on, are we saying our journey from the bottom of the 2nd Div to competing in the PL was down to John Hall and the board, and Keegan was just a lucky bit part player?

 

Good analogy. Sam will have as much success in the final phase as Keegan did. He's an improver, not a winner.

[David Kelly 1117]

 

I can't understand why you think he hasn't overachieved with Bolton. Is your criteria for overachivement? Do you have to take Wimbledon from non league to the premiership? The simple fact is that before his arrival Bolton were a first division club with no expectations other than having the odd challenge for promotion and if they did get up battle bravely against relegation. But he did more than this, he took them up, kept them up, established them as a premiership club (similar to Curbishly at Charlton) and then give them a realistic chance of qualifying for Europe and even an outside chance of snatching a Champions League spot. For me and it appears most others, that is what we would consider overachivement.

 

Anything can happen in 8 years. Look at what he was given / allowed to do. How anyone can put an estimate on what would have been an everage performance from that situation, let alone judge it as an overachievement, is beyond me. Are you really telling me that Bolton are actually a Division 1 club? The whole club has been changed, you can't judge performance now on what they were 8 years ago.

 

Regardless of whether you think another manager could have done more (which is doubtfull given the resources that were available and the nature of English football these days ie you need money to bring trophy's) he did do a fantastic job which has been acknowleged by their fans, board, players and anyone else with eyes.

 

This whole point you have about the fat man wanting him three years ago is irrelevant when you are arguing about why people now are saying he is the best we could get currently. Three years ago I agree few people would have wanted him (although I'm sure almost everyone would have took him over Souness) but we are not in the same position we were then. At that time we had finished 4th, 3rd and 5th in three seasons, qualifying for the 2nd group phase of the champions league and getting to a Uefa cup semi final. At that time we were an attractive proposition. Now we have had three god awful seasons, we are not in europe and we don't have the same amount of transfer funds as we did. We can't expect Europes elite to come kicking our door in so most of us have shifted our expectations of who we can appoint.

 

You honestly can't see a problem in Freddy thinking he is a top 3 manager? It has nothing to do with what we need now, it is about what Fred thinks he's doing. What are you going to do when he sacks Sam for two consecutive 10th finishes? Clearly that would fit the fan expectations right now, it won't fit Freds

 

It's completely irrelevant if fatty thinks he's a top three manager (he might end but being, I don't know and it's not my major concern at this stage). He's a manager that appears to have the attributes to take us forward up to at least the top six again. I think the fans will give him time if he shows this forward movement (something Dagliesh, Guillit, Souness & Roeder didn't do) and if this happens I think fatty won't be so quick with the axe. I don't think consecutive 10th place finishes would really fit with anyone's expectations, I don't know where you get that from. Who would be appointed if and when Allardyce is sacked is also irrelevant and something we can't really guess since we don't know when this would happen or who would be available.

 

I agree with your point that any manager should be able to bring in decent backroom staff but the simple fact is that none of our last five or six managers have done this and Allardyce has a succesfull record of it. If he did pick Gary Speed to bring as a coach I would be quite confident that he would be up to the job beacuse Allardyce's previous picks Brown, Lee, McDonald all appear to have been good at the jobs with all three going on to manage their own teams.

 

That wasn't the point.

 

What is the point then?

As for standing up to the fat man, none of us know whether this will ever happen but I don't have any real expectations for it. But I do believe that Allardyce would have set out certain ground rules before he accepted the job that Shepherd must have aquiesced to. This may be a false assumption but we will never know.

 

Fine, but don't use it as justification for hiring Sam and no-one else

 

I don't think anyone is and if they are I agree that they shouldn't.

I also agree that Shepherd is unlikely to have undertaken a thorough europe wide search for our new manager, I think this is something most would concede. But that just makes me all the happier that we got SA in. No one expects fatty to carefully consider his options so we can just be grateful we didn't end up with an appointment like the last two!

 

This is the saddest thing about this. Through Fred's incompetence, people now accept an appointment that they wouldn't have a few years ago. So what do we do when Sam's transformed the club, and found out the limit of his abilities is 5th? Perhaps then we might look for a man to go all the way, not someone who fits a totally short term view. Does anyone seriously believe Sam's claim about coming here for trophies?

 

You have to be realistic though don't you. We all want fatty out but can do fuck all about it. He's there and unless someone comes in with a lot of money to buy him out he's going to stay there. I don't think there is anything with accepting reality and hoping for the best from it.

If 5th is the limit of Sam's ability (and it might be the limit of anyones given the head start the top four have over us) then I think most fans would be accepting of that and if he did leave then I'm sure we would try and get someone to take us further (again I'm not certain this is possible without a massive change in our finiances or those of the top four).

As for Allardyce coming here to win things, I doubt he expects a league and cup double but he took Bolton to the league cup final on what you would expect to be a lot less resources than what he will be aforded here so don't think it's unreasonable for him to be hoping to win something.

 

[David Kelly 1117]

Sorry for the shite choice of colour btw!

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

 

I can't understand why you think he hasn't overachieved with Bolton. Is your criteria for overachivement? Do you have to take Wimbledon from non league to the premiership? The simple fact is that before his arrival Bolton were a first division club with no expectations other than having the odd challenge for promotion and if they did get up battle bravely against relegation. But he did more than this, he took them up, kept them up, established them as a premiership club (similar to Curbishly at Charlton) and then give them a realistic chance of qualifying for Europe and even an outside chance of snatching a Champions League spot. For me and it appears most others, that is what we would consider overachivement.

 

Anything can happen in 8 years. Look at what he was given / allowed to do. How anyone can put an estimate on what would have been an everage performance from that situation, let alone judge it as an overachievement, is beyond me. Are you really telling me that Bolton are actually a Division 1 club? The whole club has been changed, you can't judge performance now on what they were 8 years ago.

 

Regardless of whether you think another manager could have done more (which is doubtfull given the resources that were available and the nature of English football these days ie you need money to bring trophy's) he did do a fantastic job which has been acknowleged by their fans, board, players and anyone else with eyes.

 

This whole point you have about the fat man wanting him three years ago is irrelevant when you are arguing about why people now are saying he is the best we could get currently. Three years ago I agree few people would have wanted him (although I'm sure almost everyone would have took him over Souness) but we are not in the same position we were then. At that time we had finished 4th, 3rd and 5th in three seasons, qualifying for the 2nd group phase of the champions league and getting to a Uefa cup semi final. At that time we were an attractive proposition. Now we have had three god awful seasons, we are not in europe and we don't have the same amount of transfer funds as we did. We can't expect Europes elite to come kicking our door in so most of us have shifted our expectations of who we can appoint.

 

You honestly can't see a problem in Freddy thinking he is a top 3 manager? It has nothing to do with what we need now, it is about what Fred thinks he's doing. What are you going to do when he sacks Sam for two consecutive 10th finishes? Clearly that would fit the fan expectations right now, it won't fit Freds

 

It's completely irrelevant if fatty thinks he's a top three manager (he might end but being, I don't know and it's not my major concern at this stage). He's a manager that appears to have the attributes to take us forward up to at least the top six again. I think the fans will give him time if he shows this forward movement (something Dagliesh, Guillit, Souness & Roeder didn't do) and if this happens I think fatty won't be so quick with the axe. I don't think consecutive 10th place finishes would really fit with anyone's expectations, I don't know where you get that from. Who would be appointed if and when Allardyce is sacked is also irrelevant and something we can't really guess since we don't know when this would happen or who would be available.

 

I agree with your point that any manager should be able to bring in decent backroom staff but the simple fact is that none of our last five or six managers have done this and Allardyce has a succesfull record of it. If he did pick Gary Speed to bring as a coach I would be quite confident that he would be up to the job beacuse Allardyce's previous picks Brown, Lee, McDonald all appear to have been good at the jobs with all three going on to manage their own teams.

 

That wasn't the point.

 

What is the point then?

As for standing up to the fat man, none of us know whether this will ever happen but I don't have any real expectations for it. But I do believe that Allardyce would have set out certain ground rules before he accepted the job that Shepherd must have aquiesced to. This may be a false assumption but we will never know.

 

Fine, but don't use it as justification for hiring Sam and no-one else

 

I don't think anyone is and if they are I agree that they shouldn't.

I also agree that Shepherd is unlikely to have undertaken a thorough europe wide search for our new manager, I think this is something most would concede. But that just makes me all the happier that we got SA in. No one expects fatty to carefully consider his options so we can just be grateful we didn't end up with an appointment like the last two!

 

This is the saddest thing about this. Through Fred's incompetence, people now accept an appointment that they wouldn't have a few years ago. So what do we do when Sam's transformed the club, and found out the limit of his abilities is 5th? Perhaps then we might look for a man to go all the way, not someone who fits a totally short term view. Does anyone seriously believe Sam's claim about coming here for trophies?

 

You have to be realistic though don't you. We all want fatty out but can do fuck all about it. He's there and unless someone comes in with a lot of money to buy him out he's going to stay there. I don't think there is anything with accepting reality and hoping for the best from it.

If 5th is the limit of Sam's ability (and it might be the limit of anyones given the head start the top four have over us) then I think most fans would be accepting of that and if he did leave then I'm sure we would try and get someone to take us further (again I'm not certain this is possible without a massive change in our finiances or those of the top four).

As for Allardyce coming here to win things, I doubt he expects a league and cup double but he took Bolton to the league cup final on what you would expect to be a lot less resources than what he will be aforded here so don't think it's unreasonable for him to be hoping to win something.

 

 

So basically we're coming round to the crux of the matter. This is a nothing appointment to get some reliable mid table finishes and maybe win a league cup maybe in the next decade. It's shit.

 

You need to seriously think about what Fat Fred really thinks he has got in Sam Allardyce, and how that compares to what the fans think. Remember when Fred thought he had done the right thing and hired a disciplinarian? I for one don't trust his judgement to critically analyse anything Sam might have claimed/demanded in a job interview (although we all know it's not an interview when there are no other candidates).

[David Kelly 1117]

 

I can't understand why you think he hasn't overachieved with Bolton. Is your criteria for overachivement? Do you have to take Wimbledon from non league to the premiership? The simple fact is that before his arrival Bolton were a first division club with no expectations other than having the odd challenge for promotion and if they did get up battle bravely against relegation. But he did more than this, he took them up, kept them up, established them as a premiership club (similar to Curbishly at Charlton) and then give them a realistic chance of qualifying for Europe and even an outside chance of snatching a Champions League spot. For me and it appears most others, that is what we would consider overachivement.

 

Anything can happen in 8 years. Look at what he was given / allowed to do. How anyone can put an estimate on what would have been an everage performance from that situation, let alone judge it as an overachievement, is beyond me. Are you really telling me that Bolton are actually a Division 1 club? The whole club has been changed, you can't judge performance now on what they were 8 years ago.

 

Regardless of whether you think another manager could have done more (which is doubtfull given the resources that were available and the nature of English football these days ie you need money to bring trophy's) he did do a fantastic job which has been acknowleged by their fans, board, players and anyone else with eyes.

 

This whole point you have about the fat man wanting him three years ago is irrelevant when you are arguing about why people now are saying he is the best we could get currently. Three years ago I agree few people would have wanted him (although I'm sure almost everyone would have took him over Souness) but we are not in the same position we were then. At that time we had finished 4th, 3rd and 5th in three seasons, qualifying for the 2nd group phase of the champions league and getting to a Uefa cup semi final. At that time we were an attractive proposition. Now we have had three god awful seasons, we are not in europe and we don't have the same amount of transfer funds as we did. We can't expect Europes elite to come kicking our door in so most of us have shifted our expectations of who we can appoint.

 

You honestly can't see a problem in Freddy thinking he is a top 3 manager? It has nothing to do with what we need now, it is about what Fred thinks he's doing. What are you going to do when he sacks Sam for two consecutive 10th finishes? Clearly that would fit the fan expectations right now, it won't fit Freds

 

It's completely irrelevant if fatty thinks he's a top three manager (he might end but being, I don't know and it's not my major concern at this stage). He's a manager that appears to have the attributes to take us forward up to at least the top six again. I think the fans will give him time if he shows this forward movement (something Dagliesh, Guillit, Souness & Roeder didn't do) and if this happens I think fatty won't be so quick with the axe. I don't think consecutive 10th place finishes would really fit with anyone's expectations, I don't know where you get that from. Who would be appointed if and when Allardyce is sacked is also irrelevant and something we can't really guess since we don't know when this would happen or who would be available.

 

I agree with your point that any manager should be able to bring in decent backroom staff but the simple fact is that none of our last five or six managers have done this and Allardyce has a succesfull record of it. If he did pick Gary Speed to bring as a coach I would be quite confident that he would be up to the job beacuse Allardyce's previous picks Brown, Lee, McDonald all appear to have been good at the jobs with all three going on to manage their own teams.

 

That wasn't the point.

 

What is the point then?

As for standing up to the fat man, none of us know whether this will ever happen but I don't have any real expectations for it. But I do believe that Allardyce would have set out certain ground rules before he accepted the job that Shepherd must have aquiesced to. This may be a false assumption but we will never know.

 

Fine, but don't use it as justification for hiring Sam and no-one else

 

I don't think anyone is and if they are I agree that they shouldn't.

I also agree that Shepherd is unlikely to have undertaken a thorough europe wide search for our new manager, I think this is something most would concede. But that just makes me all the happier that we got SA in. No one expects fatty to carefully consider his options so we can just be grateful we didn't end up with an appointment like the last two!

 

This is the saddest thing about this. Through Fred's incompetence, people now accept an appointment that they wouldn't have a few years ago. So what do we do when Sam's transformed the club, and found out the limit of his abilities is 5th? Perhaps then we might look for a man to go all the way, not someone who fits a totally short term view. Does anyone seriously believe Sam's claim about coming here for trophies?

 

You have to be realistic though don't you. We all want fatty out but can do fuck all about it. He's there and unless someone comes in with a lot of money to buy him out he's going to stay there. I don't think there is anything with accepting reality and hoping for the best from it.

If 5th is the limit of Sam's ability (and it might be the limit of anyones given the head start the top four have over us) then I think most fans would be accepting of that and if he did leave then I'm sure we would try and get someone to take us further (again I'm not certain this is possible without a massive change in our finiances or those of the top four).

As for Allardyce coming here to win things, I doubt he expects a league and cup double but he took Bolton to the league cup final on what you would expect to be a lot less resources than what he will be aforded here so don't think it's unreasonable for him to be hoping to win something.

 

 

So basically we're coming round to the crux of the matter. This is a nothing appointment to get some reliable mid table finishes and maybe win a league cup maybe in the next decade. It's shit.

 

You need to seriously think about what Fat Fred really thinks he has got in Sam Allardyce, and how that compares to what the fans think. Remember when Fred thought he had done the right thing and hired a disciplinarian? I for one don't trust his judgement to critically analyse anything Sam might have claimed/demanded in a job interview (although we all know it's not an interview when there are no other candidates).

Where did anyone say that? We finished this season about five points above the bottom three so we obviously have some ground to make up on the top six let alone the top four. I think top six next season is not unachievable but I would be happy to see us move up into the top half and show signs of putting in place an infratructure to progress.

After that I would be looking to be in the top six and challenge the top four but we are miles behind Chelski and Manure in terms of finances (and a good way behind Arsenal and Liverpool) so I'm not expecting Champions league football every season let alone challenging for the title. Times have changed unfortunately, you aren't going to see teams like Forrest or Derby winning the league no matter how good their manager unless they get a billionaire backer. I don't like this but it is a fact of life.

We have more oppertunity to bring in revenue than most clubs but we still can't come close to the top two.

 

As for crediting Shepherd, I don't. I don't believe this appointment has been made on the back of a fantastic decision making process by him. But that doesn't alter my opinion that it is in the best interests of the club. I wish fatty had more of a clue but and in the future we could get into problems again but for now I think we have a good manager who can do what we need.

[Guest alex]

Why can't you measure where Bolton were 8 years ago against now when considering whether or not Allardyce has overachieved? What period should that judgement be measured against?

 

 

Because the club has been completely changed. Would you honestly say Keegan overachieved, or was it the result if a proper plan for advancement? There is a difference between someone using what they would expect to cope with in a situation and doing better than expected, and someone applying extra resources to improve their situation.

Who gets the credit for that? Just the chairman or was it an excellent achievement by Allardyce too?

 

So without Sam there would have been no change? Do you think without hiring Keegan that SJH would be chairman of a Division 1 club right now? Of course he gets credit but seriously, is that a criteria for appointing our manager, he can add staff to a Division 1 club when given money?

So Allardyce deserves credit for what he has achieved at Bolton then?