US Election 2008

[Guest alex]

The Muslim vote is totally insignificant in the US and (at a guess) most would have voted for Obama anyway. I'd have thought that he had far more to lose by ambiguity over his religion than he had to gain.

 

It's not that insignificant and ironically many vote republican traditionally. He knew what he as doing and played it very well (sorry to shatter his White er.. Black er... Inclusive Knight persona ).

Fair enough, remove the 'totally' bit from what I said and replace it with largely and I stand by what I said. Regarding the bit in bold, I didn't buy into that anyway or a lot of his other rhetoric. But it doesn't really have much to do with my point anyway. I agree mostly with what you say about him. I think he'll end up just like everybody else once they get in, hence my previous 'Tommy Carcetti' quip.

I just think, in terms of votes, he would have had much more to gain by making it far clearer he wasn't a Muslim (perhaps I'm doing the US a disservice there though, I'm just guessing) than the ambiguity/clever manipulation I think you're accusing him of. There aren't that many Muslims in the US. They aren't concentrated in terms of population like the Jewish population in New York which waters down their influence even more. Many US muslims are African-American converts who would have voted for him anyway. The remaining Muslims would surely have tended to favour a Democrat given the last 8 years under Bush and so on.

 

 

In a way the horrible position he is taking over with the economy in ruins and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq might actually liberate him from some extent from the fate of Carcetti. Blair squandered a lot of his honeymoon period by being cautious - Obama has the chance to avoid this as he taking over in such turmoil

 

I know I'm a idealist old lefty romantic, but I watched his acceptance speech live this morning, and found it moving and inspiring. I actually think it is a great day for America. I hate evangelical born again right wing hate America, but I do think America can be a fantastic inspiring place.

I know what you mean and I'd agree to an extent. My reservations are more to do with that despite him wanting change and believing in it, the system might not let him. I'm pretty certain he won't make the same foreign policy mess as his predecessor though which can only be a good thing.

[spongebob toonpants 3604]

The Muslim vote is totally insignificant in the US and (at a guess) most would have voted for Obama anyway. I'd have thought that he had far more to lose by ambiguity over his religion than he had to gain.

 

It's not that insignificant and ironically many vote republican traditionally. He knew what he as doing and played it very well (sorry to shatter his White er.. Black er... Inclusive Knight persona ).

Fair enough, remove the 'totally' bit from what I said and replace it with largely and I stand by what I said. Regarding the bit in bold, I didn't buy into that anyway or a lot of his other rhetoric. But it doesn't really have much to do with my point anyway. I agree mostly with what you say about him. I think he'll end up just like everybody else once they get in, hence my previous 'Tommy Carcetti' quip.

I just think, in terms of votes, he would have had much more to gain by making it far clearer he wasn't a Muslim (perhaps I'm doing the US a disservice there though, I'm just guessing) than the ambiguity/clever manipulation I think you're accusing him of. There aren't that many Muslims in the US. They aren't concentrated in terms of population like the Jewish population in New York which waters down their influence even more. Many US muslims are African-American converts who would have voted for him anyway. The remaining Muslims would surely have tended to favour a Democrat given the last 8 years under Bush and so on.

Well 8-15 million isn't going to win it (even with a very high turn out), but any sensible politician knows that all votes count in one way or another.

But I do think he was clever with it, he did deny it enough to for it to not be an issue with the main vote, but left enough to allow the muslim population to believe what they wanted to believe.

 

He did the same with his "race" (he's "Black" when he needs to be and "White" when he needs to be - when in fact he's Blite or Whack ) to be honest, and his policies.

 

Which does make what he will do quite interesting in a way.

 

 

I think that underestimates the quality of his campaign, I dont think he played up particularly to white/black christian/muslim divide at all. He appealled to the intelligence over stupidity, and calm over knee jerk, and help the poor not the rich. He pretty much ignored the Ayres/ Wright/ Acorn attacks on his backround - it would have been easy enough to tie McCain to Gordon Liddy, to have attacked his affair while his first wife was recovering from a road accident and remarrying before the divorce was finalised, he could have rubbished McCains military record which bears very little scrutiny but he ran a dignified intelligent campaign and won a huge victory.

[NJS 3978]

I think the only way he would use "Muslim" appeal to Muslim voters would be in the way my Mam would still have described me as a Catholic even though she knew that I didn't believe and from what age - an implicit "he's one of us" even if he isn't really.

 

I too was moved by his speech but then I remember being moved by Blair's speech in 97 - unfortunately being in the same camp as SpongeBob I've been disappointed by what has happened since from a left wing perspective - I hope Obama can do a bit more.

[spongebob toonpants 3604]

The Muslim vote is totally insignificant in the US and (at a guess) most would have voted for Obama anyway. I'd have thought that he had far more to lose by ambiguity over his religion than he had to gain.

 

It's not that insignificant and ironically many vote republican traditionally. He knew what he as doing and played it very well (sorry to shatter his White er.. Black er... Inclusive Knight persona ).

Fair enough, remove the 'totally' bit from what I said and replace it with largely and I stand by what I said. Regarding the bit in bold, I didn't buy into that anyway or a lot of his other rhetoric. But it doesn't really have much to do with my point anyway. I agree mostly with what you say about him. I think he'll end up just like everybody else once they get in, hence my previous 'Tommy Carcetti' quip.

I just think, in terms of votes, he would have had much more to gain by making it far clearer he wasn't a Muslim (perhaps I'm doing the US a disservice there though, I'm just guessing) than the ambiguity/clever manipulation I think you're accusing him of. There aren't that many Muslims in the US. They aren't concentrated in terms of population like the Jewish population in New York which waters down their influence even more. Many US muslims are African-American converts who would have voted for him anyway. The remaining Muslims would surely have tended to favour a Democrat given the last 8 years under Bush and so on.

 

 

In a way the horrible position he is taking over with the economy in ruins and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq might actually liberate him from some extent from the fate of Carcetti. Blair squandered a lot of his honeymoon period by being cautious - Obama has the chance to avoid this as he taking over in such turmoil

 

I know I'm a idealist old lefty romantic, but I watched his acceptance speech live this morning, and found it moving and inspiring. I actually think it is a great day for America. I hate evangelical born again right wing hate America, but I do think America can be a fantastic inspiring place.

I know what you mean and I'd agree to an extent. My reservations are more to do with that despite him wanting change and believing in it, the system might not let him. I'm pretty certain he won't make the same foreign policy mess as his predecessor though which can only be a good thing.

 

 

I agree, you cant beat the system. The Carceti arc in the wire was beautifully written and horribly authentic and depressing.

 

I hope and think Obama can still be a transforming leader and an inspiration, but I am realistic enough to know he will be hamstrung and opposed by the broken institutions and corporate power every step of the way. Its going to be fascinating to see how he does

[Fop 1]

The Muslim vote is totally insignificant in the US and (at a guess) most would have voted for Obama anyway. I'd have thought that he had far more to lose by ambiguity over his religion than he had to gain.

 

It's not that insignificant and ironically many vote republican traditionally. He knew what he as doing and played it very well (sorry to shatter his White er.. Black er... Inclusive Knight persona ).

Fair enough, remove the 'totally' bit from what I said and replace it with largely and I stand by what I said. Regarding the bit in bold, I didn't buy into that anyway or a lot of his other rhetoric. But it doesn't really have much to do with my point anyway. I agree mostly with what you say about him. I think he'll end up just like everybody else once they get in, hence my previous 'Tommy Carcetti' quip.

I just think, in terms of votes, he would have had much more to gain by making it far clearer he wasn't a Muslim (perhaps I'm doing the US a disservice there though, I'm just guessing) than the ambiguity/clever manipulation I think you're accusing him of. There aren't that many Muslims in the US. They aren't concentrated in terms of population like the Jewish population in New York which waters down their influence even more. Many US muslims are African-American converts who would have voted for him anyway. The remaining Muslims would surely have tended to favour a Democrat given the last 8 years under Bush and so on.

Well 8-15 million isn't going to win it (even with a very high turn out), but any sensible politician knows that all votes count in one way or another.

But I do think he was clever with it, he did deny it enough to for it to not be an issue with the main vote, but left enough to allow the muslim population to believe what they wanted to believe.

 

He did the same with his "race" (he's "Black" when he needs to be and "White" when he needs to be - when in fact he's Blite or Whack ) to be honest, and his policies.

 

Which does make what he will do quite interesting in a way.

 

Politician in 'being a politician' shocker. Stop the presses.

 

He's the first black president in history. The rest is just details tbh.

 

 

Which is, exactly my point, he's not.

[NJS 3978]

Which is, exactly my point, he's not.

 

Are we now in apartheid SA again where people are racially categorised to the nth degree?

 

His dad is a Kenyan - he's the very definition of African-American.

[Fop 1]

I thought those figures were high Fop, so I checked.

From wikipedia:

"The highest, generally-accepted estimate of Muslims (including children) in the United States is 2.35 million (0.6% of the total population). Some sources mention estimates as high as 6-7 million. Such estimates were accepted by media for some time, but any empirical basis for these higher numbers is not documented."

Hardly the 8-15 million voters you're on about, is it?

Anyway we obviously aren't going to agree but I wasn't just being pernickety. I think you are being unduly harsh on him over this particular matter. It was the Republicans who implied he was a Muslim. He set the record straight but he was hardly then obliged to keep going on about an issue which his opponents wanted to use as a devisive tool.

 

There's no decent estimate, and it's widely believed that all estimates they do have are massively under-represent (because of the very crude methods used).

 

There's at least 8m that would refer to themselves as "muslim" and could easily be double or more that would refer to themselves as that.

 

 

The yearly immigration figures show that 2.4 million figure to be total rubbish, even if no muslim ever immigrated to the USA prior to 2003. (so I guess the pretty large west coast influx of the 70's never happened)

[Park Life 70]

[Fop 1]

Which is, exactly my point, he's not.

 

Are we now in apartheid SA again where people are racially categorised to the nth degree?

 

His dad is a Kenyan - he's the very definition of African-American.

 

And what's his mother?

 

Defining someone by the tint of their skin is the very definition of racism.

[manc-mag 1]

The Muslim vote is totally insignificant in the US and (at a guess) most would have voted for Obama anyway. I'd have thought that he had far more to lose by ambiguity over his religion than he had to gain.

 

It's not that insignificant and ironically many vote republican traditionally. He knew what he as doing and played it very well (sorry to shatter his White er.. Black er... Inclusive Knight persona ).

Fair enough, remove the 'totally' bit from what I said and replace it with largely and I stand by what I said. Regarding the bit in bold, I didn't buy into that anyway or a lot of his other rhetoric. But it doesn't really have much to do with my point anyway. I agree mostly with what you say about him. I think he'll end up just like everybody else once they get in, hence my previous 'Tommy Carcetti' quip.

I just think, in terms of votes, he would have had much more to gain by making it far clearer he wasn't a Muslim (perhaps I'm doing the US a disservice there though, I'm just guessing) than the ambiguity/clever manipulation I think you're accusing him of. There aren't that many Muslims in the US. They aren't concentrated in terms of population like the Jewish population in New York which waters down their influence even more. Many US muslims are African-American converts who would have voted for him anyway. The remaining Muslims would surely have tended to favour a Democrat given the last 8 years under Bush and so on.

Well 8-15 million isn't going to win it (even with a very high turn out), but any sensible politician knows that all votes count in one way or another.

But I do think he was clever with it, he did deny it enough to for it to not be an issue with the main vote, but left enough to allow the muslim population to believe what they wanted to believe.

 

He did the same with his "race" (he's "Black" when he needs to be and "White" when he needs to be - when in fact he's Blite or Whack ) to be honest, and his policies.

 

Which does make what he will do quite interesting in a way.

 

Politician in 'being a politician' shocker. Stop the presses.

 

He's the first black president in history. The rest is just details tbh.

 

 

Which is, exactly my point, he's not.

 

Right, well you obviously know better than the vast majority of African Americans who accept him as such. But then of course you would.

[spongebob toonpants 3604]

I think the only way he would use "Muslim" appeal to Muslim voters would be in the way my Mam would still have described me as a Catholic even though she knew that I didn't believe and from what age - an implicit "he's one of us" even if he isn't really.

 

I too was moved by his speech but then I remember being moved by Blair's speech in 97 - unfortunately being in the same camp as SpongeBob I've been disappointed by what has happened since from a left wing perspective - I hope Obama can do a bit more.

 

 

In spite of Blairs failures, and putting to one side Iraq, I do think Blair and New Labour have had a much greater positive effect than many.

I think the country is a better place for the Labour Govt, the inimum wage had a huge effect, Schools and the NHS though still coming in for justified criticism are immeasurably better than in 1997 - people forget the extent of the dilapidation that they faced.

 

The ridiculous Joe the Plumber meme about 3% tax increase over 250,000 dollars highlight how succesful in winning the argument over the benefits of progressive taxation labour was.

 

However we now find ourself back looking at being governed by Cameron and his 18 old Etonian cronies, with Labour unable to offer a cogent argument for the future - I am so dissapointed by how this period is ending and the opportunity wasted - they could and should have acheived so much more.

[Fop 1]

I think the only way he would use "Muslim" appeal to Muslim voters would be in the way my Mam would still have described me as a Catholic even though she knew that I didn't believe and from what age - an implicit "he's one of us" even if he isn't really.

 

I too was moved by his speech but then I remember being moved by Blair's speech in 97 - unfortunately being in the same camp as SpongeBob I've been disappointed by what has happened since from a left wing perspective - I hope Obama can do a bit more.

 

He's got an awful lot in common with Blair IMO. Both very clever operators that will only show a perfectly manicured public persona and will (and do) have very strong spin teams.

[Guest alex]

People of mixed race who are part black are largely perceived as being 'black' anyway. Regardless of the rights and wrongs and the reasons for this, which is for a different debate anyway, that's a fact. So it's hardly like Obama's campaign came up with something new and clever. He can hardly help the way he is perceived and I fail to see how he has manipulated his background exactly.

[Guest alex]

I thought those figures were high Fop, so I checked.

From wikipedia:

"The highest, generally-accepted estimate of Muslims (including children) in the United States is 2.35 million (0.6% of the total population). Some sources mention estimates as high as 6-7 million. Such estimates were accepted by media for some time, but any empirical basis for these higher numbers is not documented."

Hardly the 8-15 million voters you're on about, is it?

Anyway we obviously aren't going to agree but I wasn't just being pernickety. I think you are being unduly harsh on him over this particular matter. It was the Republicans who implied he was a Muslim. He set the record straight but he was hardly then obliged to keep going on about an issue which his opponents wanted to use as a devisive tool.

 

There's no decent estimate, and it's widely believed that all estimates they do have are massively under-represent (because of the very crude methods used).

 

There's at least 8m that would refer to themselves as "muslim" and could easily be double or more that would refer to themselves as that.

 

 

The yearly immigration figures show that 2.4 million figure to be total rubbish, even if no muslim ever immigrated to the USA prior to 2003. (so I guess the pretty large west coast influx of the 70's never happened)

So basically you made the figure up? Nice one. Nicely ignoring the rest of my post as well.

[Fop 1]

In spite of Blairs failures, and putting to one side Iraq, I do think Blair and New Labour have had a much greater positive effect than many.

I think the country is a better place for the Labour Govt, the inimum wage had a huge effect, Schools and the NHS though still coming in for justified criticism are immeasurably better than in 1997 - people forget the extent of the dilapidation that they faced.

 

The ridiculous Joe the Plumber meme about 3% tax increase over 250,000 dollars highlight how succesful in winning the argument over the benefits of progressive taxation labour was.

 

However we now find ourself back looking at being governed by Cameron and his 18 old Etonian cronies, with Labour unable to offer a cogent argument for the future - I am so dissapointed by how this period is ending and the opportunity wasted - they could and should have acheived so much more.

 

 

Just wait until we get through this recession, the hard part of 1997-2007 was making a balls up in the then in the UK and world economic conditions, almost nothing a Government could do would come back to bite it (although quite a lot of what was done then has now come back to bite).

 

Brown's currently breaking or broken most every "rule" he ever made.

 

The may manage it in a decent way, but not without a lot of cuts and taxation and pain.

[Fop 1]

I thought those figures were high Fop, so I checked.

From wikipedia:

"The highest, generally-accepted estimate of Muslims (including children) in the United States is 2.35 million (0.6% of the total population). Some sources mention estimates as high as 6-7 million. Such estimates were accepted by media for some time, but any empirical basis for these higher numbers is not documented."

Hardly the 8-15 million voters you're on about, is it?

Anyway we obviously aren't going to agree but I wasn't just being pernickety. I think you are being unduly harsh on him over this particular matter. It was the Republicans who implied he was a Muslim. He set the record straight but he was hardly then obliged to keep going on about an issue which his opponents wanted to use as a devisive tool.

 

There's no decent estimate, and it's widely believed that all estimates they do have are massively under-represent (because of the very crude methods used).

 

There's at least 8m that would refer to themselves as "muslim" and could easily be double or more that would refer to themselves as that.

 

 

The yearly immigration figures show that 2.4 million figure to be total rubbish, even if no muslim ever immigrated to the USA prior to 2003. (so I guess the pretty large west coast influx of the 70's never happened)

So basically you made the figure up? Nice one. Nicely ignoring the rest of my post as well.

Nope estimates vary, but given the yearly influx since 2003 2.4m is clearly wrong, there's 8m at least.

[Guest alex]

I thought those figures were high Fop, so I checked.

From wikipedia:

"The highest, generally-accepted estimate of Muslims (including children) in the United States is 2.35 million (0.6% of the total population). Some sources mention estimates as high as 6-7 million. Such estimates were accepted by media for some time, but any empirical basis for these higher numbers is not documented."

Hardly the 8-15 million voters you're on about, is it?

Anyway we obviously aren't going to agree but I wasn't just being pernickety. I think you are being unduly harsh on him over this particular matter. It was the Republicans who implied he was a Muslim. He set the record straight but he was hardly then obliged to keep going on about an issue which his opponents wanted to use as a devisive tool.

 

There's no decent estimate, and it's widely believed that all estimates they do have are massively under-represent (because of the very crude methods used).

 

There's at least 8m that would refer to themselves as "muslim" and could easily be double or more that would refer to themselves as that.

 

 

The yearly immigration figures show that 2.4 million figure to be total rubbish, even if no muslim ever immigrated to the USA prior to 2003. (so I guess the pretty large west coast influx of the 70's never happened)

So basically you made the figure up? Nice one. Nicely ignoring the rest of my post as well.

Nope estimates vary, but given the yearly influx since 2003 2.4m is clearly wrong, there's 8m at least.

Where are you getting this 8-15m figure from then? Not that it alters my original point.

[Fop 1]

People of mixed race who are part black are largely perceived as being 'black' anyway. Regardless of the rights and wrongs and the reasons for this, which is for a different debate anyway, that's a fact. So it's hardly like Obama's campaign came up with something new and clever. He can hardly help the way he is perceived and I fail to see how he has manipulated his background exactly.

 

Which is pretty racist in itself is it not? (and not just from a "White" perspective, but both sides)

 

 

But I do think he used it well, he played to both sides when it suited him, which is what he would do as a politician, but it's makes him as morale ambiguous and trustworthy as any politician. Which is very and not at all.

[Park Life 70]

[Fop 1]

Right, well you obviously know better than the vast majority of African Americans who accept him as such. But then of course you would.

 

Which again is exactly my point.

[Guest alex]

People of mixed race who are part black are largely perceived as being 'black' anyway. Regardless of the rights and wrongs and the reasons for this, which is for a different debate anyway, that's a fact. So it's hardly like Obama's campaign came up with something new and clever. He can hardly help the way he is perceived and I fail to see how he has manipulated his background exactly.

 

Which is pretty racist in itself is it not? (and not just from a "White" perspective, but both sides)

 

 

But I do think he used it well, he played to both sides when it suited him, which is what he would do as a politician, but it's makes him as morale ambiguous and trustworthy as any politician. Which is very and not at all.

I was saying it was the general perception. I didn't say it was right. It is a bit strange. How did he play it cleverly though? He can't change his appearance yet at the same time he didn't hide his mixed background one bit.

[manc-mag 1]

I thought those figures were high Fop, so I checked.

From wikipedia:

"The highest, generally-accepted estimate of Muslims (including children) in the United States is 2.35 million (0.6% of the total population). Some sources mention estimates as high as 6-7 million. Such estimates were accepted by media for some time, but any empirical basis for these higher numbers is not documented."

Hardly the 8-15 million voters you're on about, is it?

Anyway we obviously aren't going to agree but I wasn't just being pernickety. I think you are being unduly harsh on him over this particular matter. It was the Republicans who implied he was a Muslim. He set the record straight but he was hardly then obliged to keep going on about an issue which his opponents wanted to use as a devisive tool.

 

There's no decent estimate, and it's widely believed that all estimates they do have are massively under-represent (because of the very crude methods used).

 

There's at least 8m that would refer to themselves as "muslim" and could easily be double or more that would refer to themselves as that.

 

 

The yearly immigration figures show that 2.4 million figure to be total rubbish, even if no muslim ever immigrated to the USA prior to 2003. (so I guess the pretty large west coast influx of the 70's never happened)

So basically you made the figure up? Nice one. Nicely ignoring the rest of my post as well.

Nope estimates vary, but given the yearly influx since 2003 2.4m is clearly wrong, there's 8m at least.

Where are you getting this 8-15m figure from then? Not that it alters my original point.

 

 

A range of between 8-15 million and you dare question it's reliability!

[Fop 1]

In a way the horrible position he is taking over with the economy in ruins and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq might actually liberate him from some extent from the fate of Carcetti. Blair squandered a lot of his honeymoon period by being cautious - Obama has the chance to avoid this as he taking over in such turmoil

 

I know I'm a idealist old lefty romantic, but I watched his acceptance speech live this morning, and found it moving and inspiring. I actually think it is a great day for America. I hate evangelical born again right wing hate America, but I do think America can be a fantastic inspiring place.

 

 

He's in a similar position to Labour in 1997 every negative he can blame on the past and take credit for anything positive, this will likely get him through his first term (no matter how good or bad things go) pretty nicely, and probably a 2nd term as well.

[manc-mag 1]

Right, well you obviously know better than the vast majority of African Americans who accept him as such. But then of course you would.

 

Which again is exactly my point.

 

So you're a better judge of what it is to be an African American than an African American then?

 

Jog on.

[Fop 1]

I thought those figures were high Fop, so I checked.

From wikipedia:

"The highest, generally-accepted estimate of Muslims (including children) in the United States is 2.35 million (0.6% of the total population). Some sources mention estimates as high as 6-7 million. Such estimates were accepted by media for some time, but any empirical basis for these higher numbers is not documented."

Hardly the 8-15 million voters you're on about, is it?

Anyway we obviously aren't going to agree but I wasn't just being pernickety. I think you are being unduly harsh on him over this particular matter. It was the Republicans who implied he was a Muslim. He set the record straight but he was hardly then obliged to keep going on about an issue which his opponents wanted to use as a devisive tool.

 

There's no decent estimate, and it's widely believed that all estimates they do have are massively under-represent (because of the very crude methods used).

 

There's at least 8m that would refer to themselves as "muslim" and could easily be double or more that would refer to themselves as that.

 

 

The yearly immigration figures show that 2.4 million figure to be total rubbish, even if no muslim ever immigrated to the USA prior to 2003. (so I guess the pretty large west coast influx of the 70's never happened)

So basically you made the figure up? Nice one. Nicely ignoring the rest of my post as well.

Nope estimates vary, but given the yearly influx since 2003 2.4m is clearly wrong, there's 8m at least.

Where are you getting this 8-15m figure from then? Not that it alters my original point.

 

 

A range of between 8-15 million and you dare question it's reliability!

 

 

That's the best figures.

 

Out of interest what is your specific "range" genetically for being "black" and "white"?