US Election 2008

[Guest alex]

I thought those figures were high Fop, so I checked.

From wikipedia:

"The highest, generally-accepted estimate of Muslims (including children) in the United States is 2.35 million (0.6% of the total population). Some sources mention estimates as high as 6-7 million. Such estimates were accepted by media for some time, but any empirical basis for these higher numbers is not documented."

Hardly the 8-15 million voters you're on about, is it?

Anyway we obviously aren't going to agree but I wasn't just being pernickety. I think you are being unduly harsh on him over this particular matter. It was the Republicans who implied he was a Muslim. He set the record straight but he was hardly then obliged to keep going on about an issue which his opponents wanted to use as a devisive tool.

 

There's no decent estimate, and it's widely believed that all estimates they do have are massively under-represent (because of the very crude methods used).

 

There's at least 8m that would refer to themselves as "muslim" and could easily be double or more that would refer to themselves as that.

 

 

The yearly immigration figures show that 2.4 million figure to be total rubbish, even if no muslim ever immigrated to the USA prior to 2003. (so I guess the pretty large west coast influx of the 70's never happened)

So basically you made the figure up? Nice one. Nicely ignoring the rest of my post as well.

Nope estimates vary, but given the yearly influx since 2003 2.4m is clearly wrong, there's 8m at least.

Where are you getting this 8-15m figure from then? Not that it alters my original point.

 

 

A range of between 8-15 million and you dare question it's reliability!

 

 

That's the best figures.

 

Out of interest what is your specific "range" genetically for being "black" and "white"?

Where did you get the figures from Fop?

[Park Life 70]

The long march to destiny.

[Fop 1]

Right, well you obviously know better than the vast majority of African Americans who accept him as such. But then of course you would.

 

Which again is exactly my point.

 

So you're a better judge of what it is to be an African American than an African American then?

 

Jog on.

 

I'm not saying anything like that (in fact what you are saying is my point ).

 

 

 

What I'm saying he's good at being perceived as what he needs to be perceived as.

 

You clearly perceive him as what you want to perceive him as (not that I'm surprised, you have a very weak mind after all ), which again proves what I'm saying.

[ewerk 26351]

I can sense a Paxman / Howard situation developing here.

[ChezGiven 0]

Right, well you obviously know better than the vast majority of African Americans who accept him as such. But then of course you would.

 

Which again is exactly my point.

 

So you're a better judge of what it is to be an African American than an African American then?

 

Jog on.

 

I'm not saying anything like that (in fact what you are saying is my point ).

 

 

 

What I'm saying he's good at being perceived as what he needs to be perceived as.

 

You clearly perceive him as what you want to perceive him as (not that I'm surprised, you have a very weak mind after all ), which again proves what I'm saying.

 

Dont you try and emulate his behaviour by attempting to appear an expert on all things to all people?

[manc-mag 1]

I thought those figures were high Fop, so I checked.

From wikipedia:

"The highest, generally-accepted estimate of Muslims (including children) in the United States is 2.35 million (0.6% of the total population). Some sources mention estimates as high as 6-7 million. Such estimates were accepted by media for some time, but any empirical basis for these higher numbers is not documented."

Hardly the 8-15 million voters you're on about, is it?

Anyway we obviously aren't going to agree but I wasn't just being pernickety. I think you are being unduly harsh on him over this particular matter. It was the Republicans who implied he was a Muslim. He set the record straight but he was hardly then obliged to keep going on about an issue which his opponents wanted to use as a devisive tool.

 

There's no decent estimate, and it's widely believed that all estimates they do have are massively under-represent (because of the very crude methods used).

 

There's at least 8m that would refer to themselves as "muslim" and could easily be double or more that would refer to themselves as that.

 

 

The yearly immigration figures show that 2.4 million figure to be total rubbish, even if no muslim ever immigrated to the USA prior to 2003. (so I guess the pretty large west coast influx of the 70's never happened)

So basically you made the figure up? Nice one. Nicely ignoring the rest of my post as well.

Nope estimates vary, but given the yearly influx since 2003 2.4m is clearly wrong, there's 8m at least.

Where are you getting this 8-15m figure from then? Not that it alters my original point.

 

 

A range of between 8-15 million and you dare question it's reliability!

 

 

That's the best figures.

 

Out of interest what is your specific "range" genetically for being "black" and "white"?

 

Well two of my nephews are of mixed race, but it's more likely they'll get their heads kicked in for being 'black' than for being 'white'. Perhaps they could pose that same question to any would-be racist attacker though and get back to you with some empirical data.

[Fop 1]

I thought those figures were high Fop, so I checked.

From wikipedia:

"The highest, generally-accepted estimate of Muslims (including children) in the United States is 2.35 million (0.6% of the total population). Some sources mention estimates as high as 6-7 million. Such estimates were accepted by media for some time, but any empirical basis for these higher numbers is not documented."

Hardly the 8-15 million voters you're on about, is it?

Anyway we obviously aren't going to agree but I wasn't just being pernickety. I think you are being unduly harsh on him over this particular matter. It was the Republicans who implied he was a Muslim. He set the record straight but he was hardly then obliged to keep going on about an issue which his opponents wanted to use as a devisive tool.

 

There's no decent estimate, and it's widely believed that all estimates they do have are massively under-represent (because of the very crude methods used).

 

There's at least 8m that would refer to themselves as "muslim" and could easily be double or more that would refer to themselves as that.

 

 

The yearly immigration figures show that 2.4 million figure to be total rubbish, even if no muslim ever immigrated to the USA prior to 2003. (so I guess the pretty large west coast influx of the 70's never happened)

So basically you made the figure up? Nice one. Nicely ignoring the rest of my post as well.

Nope estimates vary, but given the yearly influx since 2003 2.4m is clearly wrong, there's 8m at least.

Where are you getting this 8-15m figure from then? Not that it alters my original point.

 

 

A range of between 8-15 million and you dare question it's reliability!

 

 

That's the best figures.

 

Out of interest what is your specific "range" genetically for being "black" and "white"?

Where did you get the figures from Fop?

 

For being "black" and "white"? I don't work with such crude definitions.

 

 

 

If you mean the muslim populations, that's the problem there are loads of contradictory measures, estimates from 1991 put it at 5-8m, as high as 12m in 1998, but there's no definitive way to tell (and I believe it is still illegal for their Government to do so in fact).

[spongebob toonpants 3604]

I think the only way he would use "Muslim" appeal to Muslim voters would be in the way my Mam would still have described me as a Catholic even though she knew that I didn't believe and from what age - an implicit "he's one of us" even if he isn't really.

 

I too was moved by his speech but then I remember being moved by Blair's speech in 97 - unfortunately being in the same camp as SpongeBob I've been disappointed by what has happened since from a left wing perspective - I hope Obama can do a bit more.

 

He's got an awful lot in common with Blair IMO. Both very clever operators that will only show a perfectly manicured public persona and will (and do) have very strong spin teams.

 

Which is self evidently an absolute necessity in modern politics - I would also say they both are attempting to provide a progessive liberal government for their country, rather than purely lusting after power for its own sake

[Guest alex]

I thought those figures were high Fop, so I checked.

From wikipedia:

"The highest, generally-accepted estimate of Muslims (including children) in the United States is 2.35 million (0.6% of the total population). Some sources mention estimates as high as 6-7 million. Such estimates were accepted by media for some time, but any empirical basis for these higher numbers is not documented."

Hardly the 8-15 million voters you're on about, is it?

Anyway we obviously aren't going to agree but I wasn't just being pernickety. I think you are being unduly harsh on him over this particular matter. It was the Republicans who implied he was a Muslim. He set the record straight but he was hardly then obliged to keep going on about an issue which his opponents wanted to use as a devisive tool.

 

There's no decent estimate, and it's widely believed that all estimates they do have are massively under-represent (because of the very crude methods used).

 

There's at least 8m that would refer to themselves as "muslim" and could easily be double or more that would refer to themselves as that.

 

 

The yearly immigration figures show that 2.4 million figure to be total rubbish, even if no muslim ever immigrated to the USA prior to 2003. (so I guess the pretty large west coast influx of the 70's never happened)

So basically you made the figure up? Nice one. Nicely ignoring the rest of my post as well.

Nope estimates vary, but given the yearly influx since 2003 2.4m is clearly wrong, there's 8m at least.

Where are you getting this 8-15m figure from then? Not that it alters my original point.

 

 

A range of between 8-15 million and you dare question it's reliability!

 

 

That's the best figures.

 

Out of interest what is your specific "range" genetically for being "black" and "white"?

Where did you get the figures from Fop?

 

For being "black" and "white"? I don't work with such crude definitions.

 

 

 

If you mean the muslim populations, that's the problem there are loads of contradictory measures, estimates from 1991 put it at 5-8m, as high as 12m in 1998, but there's no definitive way to tell (and I believe it is still illegal for their Government to do so in fact).

Yes, I mean the Muslim populations. Where are you quoting those figures from? I'm not arguing it is difficult to estimate. I'm merely asking where you are quoting those figures from as I suspect you made them up. Wikipedia would tend to back that up. It may not be the most definitive of sites on this matter but at least the figures they give are referenced, unlike yours. You made a big deal out of the numbers btw. I'm only asking where they came from. You still haven't answered.

[Park Life 70]

I feel today that this is a crossroads in the history of America and perhaps mankind.

[Fop 1]

I can sense a Paxman / Howard situation developing here.

 

It's almost as much fun.

 

Dont you try and emulate his behaviour by attempting to appear an expert on all things to all people?

 

If you mean Obama, nope I'd just agree with everyone and then do whatever suited me best.

 

If you mean manc-foplite, then it's still no I'd just whip myself into a frenzy before slinking away for a few months.

 

 

 

Well two of my nephews are of mixed race, but it's more likely they'll get their heads kicked in for being 'black' than for being 'white'. Perhaps they could pose that same question to any would-be racist attacker though and get back to you with some empirical data.

 

That's a nice attempted to divert the issue to something else, but nothing to do with the point. How you think of your nephews would be at least something to do with the point, but even so not really.

 

Lets get back to the point; what do you define as "black" or "white" and what do you want Obama to be?

[Park Life 70]

I can sense a Paxman / Howard situation developing here.

 

It's almost as much fun.

 

Dont you try and emulate his behaviour by attempting to appear an expert on all things to all people?

 

If you mean Obama, nope I'd just agree with everyone and then do whatever suited me best.

 

If you mean manc-foplite, then it's still no I'd just whip myself into a frenzy before slinking away for a few months.

 

 

 

Well two of my nephews are of mixed race, but it's more likely they'll get their heads kicked in for being 'black' than for being 'white'. Perhaps they could pose that same question to any would-be racist attacker though and get back to you with some empirical data.

 

That's a nice attempted to divert the issue to something else, but nothing to do with the point. How you think of your nephews would be at least something to do with the point, but even so not really.

 

Lets get back to the point; what do you define as "black" or "white" and what do you want Obama to be?

 

 

Does it matter?

[Guest alex]

Don't you think most 'African-Americans' are of mixed race anyway? It hardly means they don't share common experiences does it? It doesn't mean they are less likely to experience racism if they have one white grandparent etc. On top of which you haven't demonstrated how Obama has manipulated how he is perceived. You've just kept repeating the notion he has.

[Fop 1]

I think the only way he would use "Muslim" appeal to Muslim voters would be in the way my Mam would still have described me as a Catholic even though she knew that I didn't believe and from what age - an implicit "he's one of us" even if he isn't really.

 

I too was moved by his speech but then I remember being moved by Blair's speech in 97 - unfortunately being in the same camp as SpongeBob I've been disappointed by what has happened since from a left wing perspective - I hope Obama can do a bit more.

 

He's got an awful lot in common with Blair IMO. Both very clever operators that will only show a perfectly manicured public persona and will (and do) have very strong spin teams.

 

Which is self evidently an absolute necessity in modern politics - I would also say they both are attempting to provide a progessive liberal government for their country, rather than purely lusting after power for its own sake

 

Er... you're saying Blair or Brown didn't lust after power? Where have you been exactly for the last 12 years?

 

 

Also "progressive liberal"? By ever moving the Goverments into peoples lives, curtailing all manner of freedoms and making "anti-terror" law a Carte blanche for everything from seizing Iceland assets to making spying on your bins or making sure your kids live in the right address.

 

Aye, "liberal".

 

Progressively neo-fascist with good camouflage and spin machines maybe..... or I suppose liberal in the context that everyone is equally oppressed.

[Park Life 70]

[Fop 1]

I can sense a Paxman / Howard situation developing here.

 

It's almost as much fun.

 

Dont you try and emulate his behaviour by attempting to appear an expert on all things to all people?

 

If you mean Obama, nope I'd just agree with everyone and then do whatever suited me best.

 

If you mean manc-foplite, then it's still no I'd just whip myself into a frenzy before slinking away for a few months.

 

 

 

Well two of my nephews are of mixed race, but it's more likely they'll get their heads kicked in for being 'black' than for being 'white'. Perhaps they could pose that same question to any would-be racist attacker though and get back to you with some empirical data.

 

That's a nice attempted to divert the issue to something else, but nothing to do with the point. How you think of your nephews would be at least something to do with the point, but even so not really.

 

Lets get back to the point; what do you define as "black" or "white" and what do you want Obama to be?

 

 

Does it matter?

 

To me? Nope.

 

To most people? Yes, quite clearly it does.

 

 

 

It's actually quite important too, different inequality (or prejudice) isn't the same thing at all as equality or non-prejudice, its still just inequality and prejudice.

[Guest alex]

I can sense a Paxman / Howard situation developing here.

 

It's almost as much fun.

 

Dont you try and emulate his behaviour by attempting to appear an expert on all things to all people?

 

If you mean Obama, nope I'd just agree with everyone and then do whatever suited me best.

 

If you mean manc-foplite, then it's still no I'd just whip myself into a frenzy before slinking away for a few months.

 

 

 

Well two of my nephews are of mixed race, but it's more likely they'll get their heads kicked in for being 'black' than for being 'white'. Perhaps they could pose that same question to any would-be racist attacker though and get back to you with some empirical data.

 

That's a nice attempted to divert the issue to something else, but nothing to do with the point. How you think of your nephews would be at least something to do with the point, but even so not really.

 

Lets get back to the point; what do you define as "black" or "white" and what do you want Obama to be?

 

 

Does it matter?

 

To me? Nope.

 

To most people? Yes, quite clearly it does.

 

 

 

It's actually quite important too, different inequality (or prejudice) isn't the same thing at all as equality or non-prejudice, its still just inequality and prejudice.

The ethnicity of Obama is significant because of the recent history of the country he is now president-elect of, don't you think?

[Fop 1]

Yes, I mean the Muslim populations. Where are you quoting those figures from? I'm not arguing it is difficult to estimate. I'm merely asking where you are quoting those figures from as I suspect you made them up. Wikipedia would tend to back that up. It may not be the most definitive of sites on this matter but at least the figures they give are referenced, unlike yours. You made a big deal out of the numbers btw. I'm only asking where they came from. You still haven't answered.

 

There's a load of estimates, ranging from that to much, much higher (the wiki one seems to be a very specific one based on pretty hardcore practising muslims - which clearly is about as representative as the non-alcohol drinkers don't live as long statistical analysis).

 

Yes there are vague and at times contradictory, but the weight of evidence (as well as just basic immigration maths) comes down on at least 8m and possibly up to double that.

 

 

Don't you think most 'African-Americans' are of mixed race anyway? It hardly means they don't share common experiences does it? It doesn't mean they are less likely to experience racism if they have one white grandparent etc. On top of which you haven't demonstrated how Obama has manipulated how he is perceived. You've just kept repeating the notion he has.

 

Out of interest (and don't look it up) just how "white" or "black" do you think he is?

[Park Life 70]

I can sense a Paxman / Howard situation developing here.

 

It's almost as much fun.

 

Dont you try and emulate his behaviour by attempting to appear an expert on all things to all people?

 

If you mean Obama, nope I'd just agree with everyone and then do whatever suited me best.

 

If you mean manc-foplite, then it's still no I'd just whip myself into a frenzy before slinking away for a few months.

 

 

 

Well two of my nephews are of mixed race, but it's more likely they'll get their heads kicked in for being 'black' than for being 'white'. Perhaps they could pose that same question to any would-be racist attacker though and get back to you with some empirical data.

 

That's a nice attempted to divert the issue to something else, but nothing to do with the point. How you think of your nephews would be at least something to do with the point, but even so not really.

 

Lets get back to the point; what do you define as "black" or "white" and what do you want Obama to be?

 

 

Does it matter?

 

To me? Nope.

 

To most people? Yes, quite clearly it does.

 

 

 

It's actually quite important too, different inequality (or prejudice) isn't the same thing at all as equality or non-prejudice, its still just inequality and prejudice.

The ethnicity of Obama is significant because of the recent history of the country he is now president-elect of, don't you think?

 

 

Of course it is significant, but the signifier is that he has transcended that. The way the avatar works is that he is the polar opposite of the reigning force whence he arrives. It is written.

 

For me the irony here is that a black man will lead Americans out of their mental chains.

Edited November 5, 2008 by 13 Kane

[Jimbo 133]

[Fop 1]

The ethnicity of Obama is significant because of the recent history of the country he is now president-elect of, don't you think?

It actually is, but IMO he's polarised into what people want (and he plays to that), rather than what he is (or should be).

 

I actually think he's doing more to sustain racism (perhaps not in the "traditionally" Western perceived way) than he is to destroy it.

[Fop 1]

Of course it is significant, but the signifier is that he has transcended that. The way the avatar works is that he is the polar opposite of the reigning force whence he arrives. It is written.

 

For me the irony here is that a black man will lead Americans out of their mental chains.

 

 

This is still what I mean, but there's clearly no fighting it.

[Park Life 70]

Of course it is significant, but the signifier is that he has transcended that. The way the avatar works is that he is the polar opposite of the reigning force whence he arrives. It is written.

 

For me the irony here is that a black man will lead Americans out of their mental chains.

 

 

This is still what I mean, but there's clearly no fighting it.

 

Go with it baby, you know it feels good.

[ChezGiven 0]

The ethnicity of Obama is significant because of the recent history of the country he is now president-elect of, don't you think?

It actually is, but IMO he's polarised into what people want (and he plays to that), rather than what he is (or should be).

 

I actually think he's doing more to sustain racism (perhaps not in the "traditionally" Western perceived way) than he is to destroy it.

 

[manc-mag 1]

I can sense a Paxman / Howard situation developing here.

 

It's almost as much fun.

 

Dont you try and emulate his behaviour by attempting to appear an expert on all things to all people?

 

If you mean Obama, nope I'd just agree with everyone and then do whatever suited me best.

 

If you mean manc-foplite, then it's still no I'd just whip myself into a frenzy before slinking away for a few months.

 

 

 

Well two of my nephews are of mixed race, but it's more likely they'll get their heads kicked in for being 'black' than for being 'white'. Perhaps they could pose that same question to any would-be racist attacker though and get back to you with some empirical data.

 

That's a nice attempted to divert the issue to something else, but nothing to do with the point. How you think of your nephews would be at least something to do with the point, but even so not really.

 

Lets get back to the point; what do you define as "black" or "white" and what do you want Obama to be?

 

No it's not, with respect. It's about approaching the question from a position of pure practicality as opposed to meaningless philosophising.

 

If you think that the African Americans of today looked the same way they did when they stepped off slave ships three hundred years ago then it shows what you know tbh. There's commonly some historical percentage of white/European in the make up of African Americans, but it doesnt mean that they regard themselves as white or that white Americans regard them as white either though, so why you're obsessed with percentage amounts is beyond me. Alex has already explained this to you though.