Park Life 70 Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share Posted January 31, 2017 https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/26/world/middleeast/israel-settlements-un-security-council-benjamin-netanyahu-obama.html?_r=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19882 Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 it's insanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19882 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 well argued defence of israel. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/19/israel-boycott-painful-truths-middle-east?CMP=share_btn_link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Yep, good article. Ignores the atrocities committed but makes a good case for the basic position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19882 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Also reinforces the point often lost on those who demand boycotts - unlike Gaza, Israel is a liberal democracy where arabs and christians live freely alongside Jews and that the Palestinians twice walked away from a peace settlement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Yep, both good points. It does seem obvious that the Palestinian side can't be placated and that Israel responds accordingly. That said, I still understand why the Palestinians are pissed off. This whole shambles remains one of the stupidest acts of politics ever considered IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19882 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 The Israeli settlement expansion is shameful and one of the main barriers to peace. But the boycotters should remember that there are two sides to this story. You can't compare the situation there to apartheid South Africa, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 I meant more the creation of the state altogether. Can't comment on the apartheid bit, don't know enough of the particulars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19882 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 well, the state was created, rightly or wrongly, and it is now a sovereign nation. my issue with the free palestine movement is often they deny that israel has the right to exist. a two state solution is the only chance of peace there but dickheads on both sides seem incapable of compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Yeah I can see that rationally but to be fair, this happened with no consideration for the Palestinian people and they will see this as an enforced occupation. If it had happened to us we'd probably not like it either. I daresay most of us would believe the state that was created in our country had no right to exist. This isn't really Israel's fault mind, but if Europe was going to give them anything, it should have given them part of Europe. Unbelievable arrogance for us to do what we did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19882 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 it's a piece of land that has changed hand several times over centuries of rule under different empires. as mandate palestine it was essentially british occupied prior to the creation of israel, just one in a long list. after the mandate was terminated the UN voted to partition the land into independent arab and jewish states, which the arabs rejected. then there was the arab-israel war, which the the israelis won they grabbed more land than drawn up by the UN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 (edited) So what? It changed hands in living memory and the expectation is that the displaced just get over it? It should have never happened. Of course, it did happen. But only the most rational of the displaced peoples will be ambivalent about that. We wouldn't meet that standard, dunno why we should expect it of them. Edited February 19, 2017 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19882 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 when wars are won, land is often annexed. doesn't make it right of course but it does happen. the israelis weren't the first to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 (edited) when wars are won, land is often annexed. doesn't make it right of course but it does happen. the israelis weren't the first to do it.The Israelis didn't do it. We did it. And generally when that sort of thing happens, the invading country doesn't displace the existing populace with it's own citizens. I can't imagine any other historical example of this being done having gone any better than what we're seeing now. Moreover, this happened at the birth of the 'civilised' age. We should know better than this. Edited February 19, 2017 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19882 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 i'm taking about parts of east jerusalem and the west bank. what are you talking about? prior to british mandate, there wasn't even a palestine - it was part of the ottoman empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3989 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 i'm taking about parts of east jerusalem and the west bank. what are you talking about? prior to british mandate, there wasn't even a palestine - it was part of the ottoman empire.And Muslim in one way or another for about 900 years and not "Jewish" for centuries before that. It's the "promised land" rhetoric that gets me - funny how that argument is dismissed in every other case of displaced people or occupied region of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19882 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 So it's the creation of Israel in the first place that is the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3989 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 So it's the creation of Israel in the first place that is the problem?To an extent, yes. I can understand the desire to create a safe place after the holocaust but I don't think transplanting so many people from around the world to the middle east helped. Maybe a better solution could have been found at the time but I accept there was rejection of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19882 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 it's the UN which is to blame then? jews have historical and religious ties to the land going back hundreds of years, the latter of which i'll concede is mumbo jumbo bollocks. in the early part of the last century, thousands of jews moved there before it became israel. it's worth remembering they were escaping europe, fleeing persecution. then you had the massive influx following the holocaust. then after the war, the UN came up with the partition plan. israel is now recognised by the international community and in my opinion has a right to exist. the problem is building settlements in east jerusalem and the west bank - there will never be a two state solution or peace while they continue to do this and it's the religious nutters as usual that are driving it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3989 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 jews have historical and religious ties to the land going back hundreds of years, the latter of which i'll concede is mumbo jumbo bollocks. No more so than the native peoples of just about the entire American continent or the aboriginal peoples of Australasia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 The Israeli settlement expansion is shameful and one of the main barriers to peace. But the boycotters should remember that there are two sides to this story. You can't compare the situation there to apartheid South Africa, in my opinion. Totally agree if the settlement building can be reigned in that would be a good place to start. The internal politics of the ruling right in Israel are reluctant to seriously criticize or block new settlements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19882 Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 bibi is the problem. no change while he is in power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj 17 Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 No more so than the native peoples of just about the entire American continent or the aboriginal peoples of Australasia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30559 Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 They're not white though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj 17 Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-39037605 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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