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Israel continues its merciless pounding of the defenceless.


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That's a pretty big fucking difference. To say nothing of the religious element and the fact that the Israel/Palestine conflict is much more recent.

obviously I should have added an emoticon :lol:

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Right, so it's hard ro say that one side has more of a claim to the land than the other.

 

I'm convinced that the majority of normal people on both sides are sick of it all and want peace but the hardliners, and there are twats on both sides, will never let it happen.

"Arabs" lived there albeit alongside Jews and Christians - probably in the majority for at least 1400 years so I think they do have a notional claim no matter what the place is called or who rules it.

 

It's funny how those who support Israel's right to exist dismiss the rights of other displaced nations where the occupiers have been there for nowhere near as long (USA, Australia).

 

Of course the extra factors are religion, money and sympathy. I respect the last of those but their treatment of the Palestinians erodes that to a certain degree.

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And aren't suicide bombings largely a thing of the past?

Yeah, the security walls, as barbaric and ghastly as they appear, with the irony of the resemblance to the Warsaw ghetto seemingly lost on Israel's policy makers, seem to have worked on that front.

 

it's stabbing that's all the rage these days

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"Arabs" lived there albeit alongside Jews and Christians - probably in the majority for at least 1400 years so I think they do have a notional claim no matter what the place is called or who rules it.

 

It's funny how those who support Israel's right to exist dismiss the rights of other displaced nations where the occupiers have been there for nowhere near as long (USA, Australia).

 

Of course the extra factors are religion, money and sympathy. I respect the last of those but their treatment of the Palestinians erodes that to a certain degree.

I disagree the Palestinians have more of a claim than the Jews. I think they both have a case for sovereignty in the region.

 

That's not in anyway a defence of any of Israel's military aggression or settlement expansion into disputed territories by the way.

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Well like the rest of the middle east, I think the problem is borders drawn largely by Western powers. There probably is enough land to carve up semi-sensibly but the deliberate way Jerusalem has been made sacred by all of them complicates it.

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Well like the rest of the middle east, I think the problem is borders drawn largely by Western powers. There probably is enough land to carve up semi-sensibly but the deliberate way Jerusalem has been made sacred by all of them complicates it.

 

 

after years of persecution, i don't think you can blame the jews for defending the homeland that the international community granted them. but there will never be peace because that's not enough for the religious wankers who always want more. i mean honestly, what enjoyment can be had by living in a settlement in occupied palestinian territory? louis theoroux did a good documentary on it a few years ago. these wankers fan the flames of the conflict while putting their own kids' lives at risk each day, and for what? so they can bleat on about their holy land.

Edited by Dr Gloom
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after years of persecution, i don't think you can blame the jews for defending the homeland that the international community granted them.

 

By 'defending' you surely mean 'expanding'?

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as always, mumbo jumbo religion is mostly to blame for human suffering.

I think it's much more about the desire for land and power. It provides a damn good excuse though.

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By 'defending' you surely mean 'expanding'?

 

by defending, i'm talking about retaliating to attacks on israel territory, whether it's suicide bombs, rockets fired in from gaza, the stabbing of israelis or whatever. if israel has a right to exist, it also has a right to defend itself with military force. that doesn't make it exempt from criticism for how heavy handed it is in that respect.

 

the settlement issue is one of expansion, but again this is an issue that the majority of israelis i speak to don't agree with. it's the religious nutters that are behind it.

 

i think a lot of liberal europeans sympathise with the palestinians because israel have the money and the power that the backing of the US has given them. it seems like an unfair fight, and israel doesn't do itself any favours, but there are two sides to the story.

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I think it's much more about the desire for land and power. It provides a damn good excuse though.

 

View it the same as ISIS, who might say it's a desire to establish an Islamic state and call it a Jihad or whatever, but for the string-pullers* really it's just about gangsters wanting power and influence. The religious rhetoric just makes it easier to recruit disenfranchised, ill-educated kids to their cause.

 

 

 

*No, not the CIA

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Israel's defence of its borders and citizens isn't the problem. It's the overwhelming military superiority and huge US financial backing. Although I do appreciate it's understandable how that all came about it's so one-sided a conflict that they act with virtual impunity.

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Good This American Life this week

 

 

Twenty years ago, the prime minister of Israel was assassinated. The killer was a lone gunman, Israeli and Jewish, just like the prime minister. Lots of witnesses saw it happen; the assassin confessed immediately, that night, and has never recanted. But today, oddly, lots of people don’t believe it happened that way. And a question hangs over the country: did this act change the fate of the nation?

 

 

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/570/the-night-in-question

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Rabin was going to sign Oslo.

 

It's interesting from a few angles. There's the conspiracy theorists who ignore the video footage of the assassination, the confession of the killer and his brother who was in on it and explain clearly & logically why they did it (Oslo, as you say), the eyewitness testimony of everyone involved including his driver and guards. You'd think they were barnpots, but it's half the population, despite the piles of evidence they have compared to JFK. Even the killers mother won't believe her son when he says he and his brother did it. She says they only think they did, but the spooks changed the bullets for blanks on the route :lol: They take his shirt for analysis and present new evidence though, they don't just laugh at the conspiracies. He was supposed to be shot in the back but there are supposed bullet holes in the front of his shirt.

 

Then they look at the political shift from left to right that followed, the abandonment of Oslo that the killers had wanted and the increased settlements "legal" or not. They interview a right winger who's been pushing settlements from before the assassination and she describes how on the night he was killed she new they were going to become dominant for a long time. She's got a plaque in her garden with a Rabin quote about the first settlements saying basically "let them try to settle, no water no electricty, they won't last the winter" because she's delighted to have been involved with defying that.

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