Dr Gloom 20731 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 That's a pretty big fucking difference. To say nothing of the religious element and the fact that the Israel/Palestine conflict is much more recent. obviously I should have added an emoticon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 28235 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 And aren't suicide bombings largely a thing of the past? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4125 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Right, so it's hard ro say that one side has more of a claim to the land than the other. I'm convinced that the majority of normal people on both sides are sick of it all and want peace but the hardliners, and there are twats on both sides, will never let it happen. "Arabs" lived there albeit alongside Jews and Christians - probably in the majority for at least 1400 years so I think they do have a notional claim no matter what the place is called or who rules it. It's funny how those who support Israel's right to exist dismiss the rights of other displaced nations where the occupiers have been there for nowhere near as long (USA, Australia). Of course the extra factors are religion, money and sympathy. I respect the last of those but their treatment of the Palestinians erodes that to a certain degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20731 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 And aren't suicide bombings largely a thing of the past? Yeah, the security walls, as barbaric and ghastly as they appear, with the irony of the resemblance to the Warsaw ghetto seemingly lost on Israel's policy makers, seem to have worked on that front. it's stabbing that's all the rage these days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20731 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 "Arabs" lived there albeit alongside Jews and Christians - probably in the majority for at least 1400 years so I think they do have a notional claim no matter what the place is called or who rules it. It's funny how those who support Israel's right to exist dismiss the rights of other displaced nations where the occupiers have been there for nowhere near as long (USA, Australia). Of course the extra factors are religion, money and sympathy. I respect the last of those but their treatment of the Palestinians erodes that to a certain degree. I disagree the Palestinians have more of a claim than the Jews. I think they both have a case for sovereignty in the region. That's not in anyway a defence of any of Israel's military aggression or settlement expansion into disputed territories by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4125 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Well like the rest of the middle east, I think the problem is borders drawn largely by Western powers. There probably is enough land to carve up semi-sensibly but the deliberate way Jerusalem has been made sacred by all of them complicates it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20731 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 as always, mumbo jumbo religion is mostly to blame for human suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20731 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) Well like the rest of the middle east, I think the problem is borders drawn largely by Western powers. There probably is enough land to carve up semi-sensibly but the deliberate way Jerusalem has been made sacred by all of them complicates it. after years of persecution, i don't think you can blame the jews for defending the homeland that the international community granted them. but there will never be peace because that's not enough for the religious wankers who always want more. i mean honestly, what enjoyment can be had by living in a settlement in occupied palestinian territory? louis theoroux did a good documentary on it a few years ago. these wankers fan the flames of the conflict while putting their own kids' lives at risk each day, and for what? so they can bleat on about their holy land. Edited October 21, 2015 by Dr Gloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 28235 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 after years of persecution, i don't think you can blame the jews for defending the homeland that the international community granted them. By 'defending' you surely mean 'expanding'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 32842 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 as always, mumbo jumbo religion is mostly to blame for human suffering. I think it's much more about the desire for land and power. It provides a damn good excuse though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20731 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 By 'defending' you surely mean 'expanding'? by defending, i'm talking about retaliating to attacks on israel territory, whether it's suicide bombs, rockets fired in from gaza, the stabbing of israelis or whatever. if israel has a right to exist, it also has a right to defend itself with military force. that doesn't make it exempt from criticism for how heavy handed it is in that respect. the settlement issue is one of expansion, but again this is an issue that the majority of israelis i speak to don't agree with. it's the religious nutters that are behind it. i think a lot of liberal europeans sympathise with the palestinians because israel have the money and the power that the backing of the US has given them. it seems like an unfair fight, and israel doesn't do itself any favours, but there are two sides to the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 9873 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 I think it's much more about the desire for land and power. It provides a damn good excuse though. View it the same as ISIS, who might say it's a desire to establish an Islamic state and call it a Jihad or whatever, but for the string-pullers* really it's just about gangsters wanting power and influence. The religious rhetoric just makes it easier to recruit disenfranchised, ill-educated kids to their cause. *No, not the CIA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 32842 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Israel's defence of its borders and citizens isn't the problem. It's the overwhelming military superiority and huge US financial backing. Although I do appreciate it's understandable how that all came about it's so one-sided a conflict that they act with virtual impunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted October 21, 2015 Author Share Posted October 21, 2015 Historically nothing is ever resolved till the superior power wants it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20731 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 the israelis i know are all pretty cool. they generally don't drink much but they're bang into their mind bending drugs and raving in the desert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 14569 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 The Israelis I know are mostly fat arrogant gays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20731 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 fat, jewish and gay? a tripple whammy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 32842 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 The Israelis I know are mostly fat arrogant gays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted October 21, 2015 Author Share Posted October 21, 2015 The Israelis I know are mostly fat arrogant gays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Good This American Life this week Twenty years ago, the prime minister of Israel was assassinated. The killer was a lone gunman, Israeli and Jewish, just like the prime minister. Lots of witnesses saw it happen; the assassin confessed immediately, that night, and has never recanted. But today, oddly, lots of people don’t believe it happened that way. And a question hangs over the country: did this act change the fate of the nation? http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/570/the-night-in-question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Share Posted October 22, 2015 Rabin was going to sign Oslo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Rabin was going to sign Oslo. It's interesting from a few angles. There's the conspiracy theorists who ignore the video footage of the assassination, the confession of the killer and his brother who was in on it and explain clearly & logically why they did it (Oslo, as you say), the eyewitness testimony of everyone involved including his driver and guards. You'd think they were barnpots, but it's half the population, despite the piles of evidence they have compared to JFK. Even the killers mother won't believe her son when he says he and his brother did it. She says they only think they did, but the spooks changed the bullets for blanks on the route They take his shirt for analysis and present new evidence though, they don't just laugh at the conspiracies. He was supposed to be shot in the back but there are supposed bullet holes in the front of his shirt. Then they look at the political shift from left to right that followed, the abandonment of Oslo that the killers had wanted and the increased settlements "legal" or not. They interview a right winger who's been pushing settlements from before the assassination and she describes how on the night he was killed she new they were going to become dominant for a long time. She's got a plaque in her garden with a Rabin quote about the first settlements saying basically "let them try to settle, no water no electricty, they won't last the winter" because she's delighted to have been involved with defying that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 "Israel has received $124.3bn in military assistance from the US since its founding, according to a recent congressional report. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/09/obama-netanyahu-us-visit-military-aid-israel.. Wouldn't have continually taken the piss without American money pouring in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20731 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 @Park Life - you're nothing but a lefty academic. bojo says so. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34787478 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 32842 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Blatantly just didn't want to go there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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